They have no shame

[Nitehawk013]

The troubling thing about threads like this is that they will ultimately amount to nothing almost universally.

The pro-tithers folks here, and in real life, will not debate the issue. I have heard them say it from pulpits, where they know they will not be challenged and can use the bully pulpit literally, that "there is no debate about tithing". They say it as though everyone just knows it is truth and everyone does it. Of course, that is a blatant lie and patently false. Now either they know that and are lying, or they are simply ignorant and refuse to learn. Either way, I struggle to have any faith that pro-tithe preachers, who are living off the tithe or simply making a supplemental income from it, will ever be open to even the realm of possibility that they could...heaven forbid...be wrong.

And on the flip side, those on the anti-tithe (NOT anti-giving) side will certainly never be convinced we are wrong. I know for me, there is no way I will ever go back to put the blinders back on and accept a doctrine as abusive, twisted and hermeneutically pathetic as tithing. I will stand with the overwhelming majority of histories best theologians in opposition to forced tithing in the NT church.

So this sort of "discussion" really only serves to arouse further frustration. The Pastors out there today won't wake up and stop preaching this tithe nonsense. So those of my age and such are stuck. Our options are to leave church, star our own churches or sit in churches that preach a pathetic, abusive doctrine of tithing. That snot to say that the church may not be fantastic across the board in every other way. In fact, I would argue my church really does excel in most everything...but the tithing nonsense is front and center most Sundays.

My hope, and I pray it isn't a vain hope, is that the next generation continues to have the blinders pulled off and they renounce this tithe nonsense. I want my sons to grow and be a part of churches where they aren't essentially told that their love for God and church is only measured by how much money they give to the church. Where they aren't fed a lie that they will burn in hell if they "rob God" by not tithing, despite no mention of a tithe being mandated in the NT church writings.

This next generation has the chance to shake off the garbage. I hope they do and in doing so, I hope that today's preachers of the tithe are around to see how wrong they have been. That you CAN build and maintain a living, thriving powerful church without using theological extortion on the people. That you can't "buy" blessings or make God become indebted to you by throwing money into a box or basket. And that the history is clear: tithing was NOT in the NT church at all for nearly 700 years and only then began to creep in as the greed of bishops and such rose and their desire for fancy buildings and a priestly class above the people manifested. That Paul and the other NT writers never endorsed tithing, merely that those who really preach and live the gospel should be taken care of by the church. That Jesus Himself NEVER ONCE paid tithe as He was almost certainly a carpenter and according to our Bible tradesmen DID NOT pay tithe under the law.

So I hope that this horrific doctrine goes the way of serpent seed and preaching against deodorant. Namely that it becomes something that is a joke in Pentecost, something that only the truly ignorant and foolish still believe.

And if it doesn't happen, then I hope to God we start seeing more alternatives to the churches we are all in that refuse to even discuss the issue. I would say just stick it out if possible and pray for your pastors to "see the light", but unfortunately...when it comes to money far too many even great men will not listen to any other view that might hurt the income and purse strings.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Originalist

But not to the point of reading into the text a requirement for the church members to give 10% of their gross income.

And "the same way/manner" taken too literally will actually destroy the tithe argument.

Furthermore, I believe you are misunderstanding how the OT ministry was supported. Please see post #117.

Who said "have to"? It simply means Old Testament ways for support are fully allowable today. It's splitting hairs to say a certain currency that's outdated must be maintained if one goes by those Old Testament manners. Even disengenuous.

There's nothing wrong with using tithes if it's not a law nor a means of averting a curse. And God has blessed it. Too late to tell me he doesn't.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Rudy

Not so, not everyone tithed and money was used in that era. Everyone was free to give. Not everyone was commanded to tithe. Even those who were obligated to tithe did not have to tithe if there was a short fall.

If I had 9 cattle how many do I tithe?

This mandatory everyone has to tithe regardless of their financial well being is simply false.

Straw man, I never said mandatory.

Please, guys, be honest.

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

The troubling thing about threads like this is that they will ultimately amount to nothing almost universally.

The pro-tithers folks here, and in real life, will not debate the issue. I have heard them say it from pulpits, where they know they will not be challenged and can use the bully pulpit literally, that "there is no debate about tithing". They say it as though everyone just knows it is truth and everyone does it. Of course, that is a blatant lie and patently false. Now either they know that and are lying, or they are simply ignorant and refuse to learn. Either way, I struggle to have any faith that pro-tithe preachers, who are living off the tithe or simply making a supplemental income from it, will ever be open to even the realm of possibility that they could...heaven forbid...be wrong.

And on the flip side, those on the anti-tithe (NOT anti-giving) side will certainly never be convinced we are wrong. I know for me, there is no way I will ever go back to put the blinders back on and accept a doctrine as abusive, twisted and hermeneutically pathetic as tithing. I will stand with the overwhelming majority of histories best theologians in opposition to forced tithing in the NT church.

So this sort of "discussion" really only serves to arouse further frustration. The Pastors out there today won't wake up and stop preaching this tithe nonsense. So those of my age and such are stuck. Our options are to leave church, star our own churches or sit in churches that preach a pathetic, abusive doctrine of tithing. That snot to say that the church may not be fantastic across the board in every other way. In fact, I would argue my church really does excel in most everything...but the tithing nonsense is front and center most Sundays.

My hope, and I pray it isn't a vain hope, is that the next generation continues to have the blinders pulled off and they renounce this tithe nonsense. I want my sons to grow and be a part of churches where they aren't essentially told that their love for God and church is only measured by how much money they give to the church. Where they aren't fed a lie that they will burn in hell if they "rob God" by not tithing, despite no mention of a tithe being mandated in the NT church writings.

This next generation has the chance to shake off the garbage. I hope they do and in doing so, I hope that today's preachers of the tithe are around to see how wrong they have been. That you CAN build and maintain a living, thriving powerful church without using theological extortion on the people. That you can't "buy" blessings or make God become indebted to you by throwing money into a box or basket. And that the history is clear: tithing was NOT in the NT church at all for nearly 700 years and only then began to creep in as the greed of bishops and such rose and their desire for fancy buildings and a priestly class above the people manifested. That Paul and the other NT writers never endorsed tithing, merely that those who really preach and live the gospel should be taken care of by the church. That Jesus Himself NEVER ONCE paid tithe as He was almost certainly a carpenter and according to our Bible tradesmen DID NOT pay tithe under the law.

So I hope that this horrific doctrine goes the way of serpent seed and preaching against deodorant. Namely that it becomes something that is a joke in Pentecost, something that only the truly ignorant and foolish still believe.

And if it doesn't happen, then I hope to God we start seeing more alternatives to the churches we are all in that refuse to even discuss the issue. I would say just stick it out if possible and pray for your pastors to "see the light", but unfortunately...when it comes to money far too many even great men will not listen to any other view that might hurt the income and purse strings.

I see that you are in the gall of bitterness.
I was going to refute your post, but I just feel it is not going to do any good since your bitter and angry words speak for themselves.

Go ahead and start your own churches because if you come to mine you will hear the tithe being preached.

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

The troubling thing about threads like this is that they will ultimately amount to nothing almost universally.

The pro-tithers folks here, and in real life, will not debate the issue. I have heard them say it from pulpits, where they know they will not be challenged and can use the bully pulpit literally, that "there is no debate about tithing". They say it as though everyone just knows it is truth and everyone does it. Of course, that is a blatant lie and patently false. Now either they know that and are lying, or they are simply ignorant and refuse to learn. Either way, I struggle to have any faith that pro-tithe preachers, who are living off the tithe or simply making a supplemental income from it, will ever be open to even the realm of possibility that they could...heaven forbid...be wrong.

And on the flip side, those on the anti-tithe (NOT anti-giving) side will certainly never be convinced we are wrong. I know for me, there is no way I will ever go back to put the blinders back on and accept a doctrine as abusive, twisted and hermeneutically pathetic as tithing. I will stand with the overwhelming majority of histories best theologians in opposition to forced tithing in the NT church.

So this sort of "discussion" really only serves to arouse further frustration. The Pastors out there today won't wake up and stop preaching this tithe nonsense. So those of my age and such are stuck. Our options are to leave church, star our own churches or sit in churches that preach a pathetic, abusive doctrine of tithing. That snot to say that the church may not be fantastic across the board in every other way. In fact, I would argue my church really does excel in most everything...but the tithing nonsense is front and center most Sundays.

My hope, and I pray it isn't a vain hope, is that the next generation continues to have the blinders pulled off and they renounce this tithe nonsense. I want my sons to grow and be a part of churches where they aren't essentially told that their love for God and church is only measured by how much money they give to the church. Where they aren't fed a lie that they will burn in hell if they "rob God" by not tithing, despite no mention of a tithe being mandated in the NT church writings.

This next generation has the chance to shake off the garbage. I hope they do and in doing so, I hope that today's preachers of the tithe are around to see how wrong they have been. That you CAN build and maintain a living, thriving powerful church without using theological extortion on the people. That you can't "buy" blessings or make God become indebted to you by throwing money into a box or basket. And that the history is clear: tithing was NOT in the NT church at all for nearly 700 years and only then began to creep in as the greed of bishops and such rose and their desire for fancy buildings and a priestly class above the people manifested. That Paul and the other NT writers never endorsed tithing, merely that those who really preach and live the gospel should be taken care of by the church. That Jesus Himself NEVER ONCE paid tithe as He was almost certainly a carpenter and according to our Bible tradesmen DID NOT pay tithe under the law.

So I hope that this horrific doctrine goes the way of serpent seed and preaching against deodorant. Namely that it becomes something that is a joke in Pentecost, something that only the truly ignorant and foolish still believe.

And if it doesn't happen, then I hope to God we start seeing more alternatives to the churches we are all in that refuse to even discuss the issue. I would say just stick it out if possible and pray for your pastors to "see the light", but unfortunately...when it comes to money far too many even great men will not listen to any other view that might hurt the income and purse strings.

Fruit is born in the most amazing ways. Don't lose courage. I lurked here the better part of two years before I ever posted, and I read post after post here, on all sorts of topics, including the tithing arguments, for and against.

And it was through reading posts like this that God changed my mind about tithing doctrine.

Additionally, I know a minister who walked away from a $36K/year salary when he realized that both tithing and pastoral salaries were un-Biblical.

All progress is seemingly slow. But God is in control.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

I see that you are in the gall of bitterness.
I was going to refute your post, but I just feel it is not going to do any good since your bitter and angry words speak for themselves.

Go ahead and start your own churches because if you come to mine you will hear the tithe being preached.

He described you well. You are acting out the very attitude he described.

[Nitehawk013]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

I see that you are in the gall of bitterness.
I was going to refute your post, but I just feel it is not going to do any good since your bitter and angry words speak for themselves.

Go ahead and start your own churches because if you come to mine you will hear the tithe being preached.

Case in point. Again, thank you for just reinforcing my feeling.

As I and others have stated, any time anyone dare question tithing or call it the horrid doctrine it is, you can be sure cries or "bitter" or "greedy" are soon to follow.

Calling one bitter the moment they oppose your doctrine is akin to dropping the race card constantly. Instead of sticking to the issue, you just assault character. Now in reality, I believe that is because many tithe preachers know they cannot stand on facts. They have to appeal to emotion and rhetorical questions to get people to "buy into" tithing because if they had to only make the case based upon scriptural discussion, WHILE ALLOWING THE DISENTING VIEW TIME TO REFUTE EQUALLY, they would fail miserably.

Hence the constant appeals to peoples heartstrings. "Don't you love your church? You know we can't function without the tithe." "we can't pay the bills if you don't give your tithe". "Tithing shows how much faith you have in God". "You don't want to be greedy do you? After all, God wasn't greedy with us. He was generous and all He wants is a measly 10%". "Doesn't your man of God deserve the best? Don't you want to bless the Man of God"? "You don't want to go to hell over money do you?

All emotional tripe.

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Who said "have to"? It simply means Old Testament ways for support are fully allowable today. It's splitting hairs to say a certain currency that's outdated must be maintained if one goes by those Old Testament manners. Even disingenuous.

There's nothing wrong with using tithes if it's not a law nor a means of averting a curse. And God has blessed it. Too late to tell me he doesn't.

so by your own words food could be given. If I cut and package half a beef and deliver it to you would you take it?

Now about being disingenuous. Mike if we use Mosaic Law to promote tithing you can't change it to do whatever you want it to do or say. This is how the religious world is so messed up. Make it say something else. God made it clear what he wanted tithed, period.

Also, here in these United States it was not all that long ago where food items were used to pay doctors, laborers, mid-wives, farm workers,etc. It's nothing new.

Because of the times we may find ourselves doing this again.

No, there is nothing wrong with tithing money, you're right. But here is what happens much of the time. The person that gives let say 5% gets shunned more times than not. I know the guilt trips used to persuade the masses.

It would seem to me to be more fun to do away with mandatory tithing and see what God will do!!!

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

The troubling thing about threads like this is that they will ultimately amount to nothing almost universally.

The pro-tithers folks here, and in real life, will not debate the issue. I have heard them say it from pulpits, where they know they will not be challenged and can use the bully pulpit literally, that "there is no debate about tithing". They say it as though everyone just knows it is truth and everyone does it. Of course, that is a blatant lie and patently false. Now either they know that and are lying, or they are simply ignorant and refuse to learn. Either way, I struggle to have any faith that pro-tithe preachers, who are living off the tithe or simply making a supplemental income from it, will ever be open to even the realm of possibility that they could...heaven forbid...be wrong.

And on the flip side, those on the anti-tithe (NOT anti-giving) side will certainly never be convinced we are wrong. I know for me, there is no way I will ever go back to put the blinders back on and accept a doctrine as abusive, twisted and hermeneutically pathetic as tithing. I will stand with the overwhelming majority of histories best theologians in opposition to forced tithing in the NT church.

So this sort of "discussion" really only serves to arouse further frustration. The Pastors out there today won't wake up and stop preaching this tithe nonsense. So those of my age and such are stuck. Our options are to leave church, star our own churches or sit in churches that preach a pathetic, abusive doctrine of tithing. That snot to say that the church may not be fantastic across the board in every other way. In fact, I would argue my church really does excel in most everything...but the tithing nonsense is front and center most Sundays.

My hope, and I pray it isn't a vain hope, is that the next generation continues to have the blinders pulled off and they renounce this tithe nonsense. I want my sons to grow and be a part of churches where they aren't essentially told that their love for God and church is only measured by how much money they give to the church. Where they aren't fed a lie that they will burn in hell if they "rob God" by not tithing, despite no mention of a tithe being mandated in the NT church writings.

This next generation has the chance to shake off the garbage. I hope they do and in doing so, I hope that today's preachers of the tithe are around to see how wrong they have been. That you CAN build and maintain a living, thriving powerful church without using theological extortion on the people. That you can't "buy" blessings or make God become indebted to you by throwing money into a box or basket. And that the history is clear: tithing was NOT in the NT church at all for nearly 700 years and only then began to creep in as the greed of bishops and such rose and their desire for fancy buildings and a priestly class above the people manifested. That Paul and the other NT writers never endorsed tithing, merely that those who really preach and live the gospel should be taken care of by the church. That Jesus Himself NEVER ONCE paid tithe as He was almost certainly a carpenter and according to our Bible tradesmen DID NOT pay tithe under the law.

So I hope that this horrific doctrine goes the way of serpent seed and preaching against deodorant. Namely that it becomes something that is a joke in Pentecost, something that only the truly ignorant and foolish still believe.

And if it doesn't happen, then I hope to God we start seeing more alternatives to the churches we are all in that refuse to even discuss the issue. I would say just stick it out if possible and pray for your pastors to "see the light", but unfortunately...when it comes to money far too many even great men will not listen to any other view that might hurt the income and purse strings.

Well, let's get rolling!!

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Rudy

Well, let's get rolling!!

there are lots of inspired, independent churches now.