Why Do You Believe Jesus is God?

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by mfblume

That is not dealing with the issue! What is it with you guys? lol

Now you are avoiding it.

I already said that Revelation 22 has a verse proving that the angel was not Jesus, but was quoting Jesus. We read that JESUS SENT HIS ANGEL.

Revelation 22:16 KJV I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Now, why would the ALPHA AND OMEGA say he is the ALMIGHTY? And then say He was dead and is alive?

Do you not believe the ALMIGHTY IS GOD?

Stop acting like we are not dealing with that passage. That's silly. What I just stated was dealing with your proposed evidence. Now let me answer your objection to my proposed answer, that the angel was quoting Jesus in Revelation 22. Let's take it verse by verse.

6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. (So the angel is quoting Jesus here when he references the Lord God sending his angel)

7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. (The angel is quoting Jesus saying he will come quickly)

8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. (John worships the angel)

9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. (The angel speaks for the angel and tells John not to worship him)

10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. (The angel goes back to speaking for Jesus)

11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. (Still speaking for Jesus)

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (Still speaking for Jesus)

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. (Still speaking for Jesus)

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. (Still speaking for Jesus)

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. (Still speaking for Jesus)

16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. (Still speaking for Jesus)

Okay, Your explanation makes sense. However, you just gave me the greatest counter to Revelation 1:8 and any other passages where you claim Jesus speaks as if he is God. Let me give you a sample:

Revelation 1:8 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Explanation: This passage is Jesus speaking for God)

So now just like the claim the angel was speaking for Jesus when the angel makes a claim you believe should only apply to Jesus, just like that I am going to claim that if Jesus makes a claim that sounds like something that should only apply to God that Jesus was simply speaking for God just like you claim the angel was speaking for Jesus. Consistency I love thee soo...

[Praxeas]

Rev 22:6 And he said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place."

Rev 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Rev 22:6 And he said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place."

Rev 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."

Generally speaking anytime you reference Jesus doing something and then reference God doing something it is not an indication that Jesus is God, but that God chose to do something through or by Jesus.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by mfblume

One simple point refutes all the arguments saying Jesus is not God. Jesus is ALPHA AND OMEGA who died and is alive. And the ALPHA AND OMEGA IS THE ALMIGHTY!

How can you guys be that dishonest to think you are cornering me and yet neither of you can deal with that single point? ...THE ONE POINT I made in answer to this whole issue.

One Islamic dude said I cannot use this reference in Revelation because Revelation is not part of the New Testament. lol. I told him he needs to be edumacated a bit. He knew the first chapter of Revelation showed Jesus as God. At least -- and that's a stretch -- he responded to my point.

The things preachers make up are amazing.

I went verse by verse through chapter 1 for you as well. Chapter 1 is consistent with Jesus and God being two separate entities and chapter 22 isn't exactly filled up with stunning new information that supports your argument. Suggested to you way back to go somewhere else but I pretty much ran down the old the new and all over the gospels so that leaves you with not much else but you can keep trying.

"Revelation is not part of the New Testament". What a crock. I said nothing of the sort.

There are still about 50 other passages you won't touch with someone else's long stick so I guess I conclude from that you've pretty much been diced and served. Next.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Rev 22:6 And he said to me, "These words are trustworthy and true. And the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants what must soon take place."

Rev 22:16 "I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."

We already went through this Prax

Rev 1:1 A revelation of Jesus Christ, that God gave to him, (God gave to Jesus? But but but they are the same) to shew to his servants what things it behoveth to come to pass quickly; and he did signify [it], having sent through his messenger to his servant John

Rev 22:6 And he said to me, `These words [are] stedfast and true, and the Lord God of the holy prophets did send His messenger to shew to His servants the things that it behoveth to come quickly

Rev 22:16 I, Jesus did send my messenger to testify to you these things concerning the assemblies; I am the root and the offspring of David, the bright and morning star!

The verses in the last chapter mirror the verses in the first chapter. They still refer to Jesus and God as two separate entities and you can always take the time to not skip what the "preacher" skipped and explain why (2) physical visions of Heaven put Jesus on the spot where He himself said He would be, in one sitting on the right hand of God and in the other taking a scroll out of God's hand and I sure do have another to toss out but I was thinking one of you, since you're edumacated and I'm not, would sure bring it up.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Matthew 25 is speaking about our expectant and vigilant attitude toward faith. That is reiterated in Hebrews 9:28 - "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

Matthew 25 doesn't take away the fact that the "kingdom" of God is within us via the Holy Spirit, and that someday when we lay aside this tabernacle (2 Pet 1:14) we will reign with him in eternity.

Wherever one believes the kingdom of god is Matt 25 is speaking of conduct and deeds

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by mfblume

It sure was:

Ministers live of the gospel, sir. It's bible.

Is it? Edumacate us. I declare that receiving is allowed but peddling is listed as sin in the bible.

Show us where it is "bible" to accumulate wealth and property from sale of the gospel. Go

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I proposed my argument for the question after which this thread is entitled. You responded and never once dealt with my proposition.

THE ALPHA AND OMEGA IS THE ALMIGHTY and also THE ONE WHO DIED AND IS ALIVE.

Deal with it. You can't. I'll hold your feet to the fire over this one. It is MY argument for the point of this thread. And you cannot respond to it, but tell me to respond to your issues. It;s like asking someone what sports game they favour, and then when someone tells you, you respond and talk about everything except what they provided for their answer. But somehow you are convincing yourself you avoided nothing.

Smart of you to leave off the rest of my post.

"For I have not spoken on my own authority, but the Father who sent me has himself given me a commandment—what to say and what to speak."

Still dealing with that? Several more pending.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Stop acting like we are not dealing with that passage.

Sorry. You aren't.

You have not explained why the Alpha and Omega is both the one who died and is alive (Jesus), and the Almighty. You just dodge the issue and go to Rev 22. I addressed Rev 22, which you claim I did not.

You, on the other hand, applied the principle of me saying Jesus is both the Almighty and the one who died and rose again to the Rev 22 chapter, which I debunked. But you did not explain why He is both Almighty and the resurrected one. Please do so! The focus of my point is THE ALMIGHTY reference.

That's silly. What I just stated was dealing with your proposed evidence.

You dealt with with general thought but never gave one explanation as to why Jesus would be called Almighty.

Only GOD is Almighty. Jesus is not AN Almighty. But THE Almighty. There are not a multitude of Almighties. Just one.

Now let me answer your objection to my proposed answer, that the angel was quoting Jesus in Revelation 22. Let's take it verse by verse.

6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. (So the angel is quoting Jesus here when he references the Lord God sending his angel)

7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. (The angel is quoting Jesus saying he will come quickly)

8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. (John worships the angel)

9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. (The angel speaks for the angel and tells John not to worship him)

10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. (The angel goes back to speaking for Jesus)

11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. (Still speaking for Jesus)

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (Still speaking for Jesus)

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. (Still speaking for Jesus)

14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. (Still speaking for Jesus)

15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. (Still speaking for Jesus)

16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. (Still speaking for Jesus)

Okay, Your explanation makes sense.

Sure does!

Walks in Islam said that the ANGEL in Rev 1:1 was JESUS, Hiimself. I disagreed. And He insisted, and cited Rev 22 as evidence, like you have done. But if the angel is Jesus, then it wreaks havoc on what Rev 22:16 says about Jesus SENDING HIS ANGEL. The only way Jesus could say He sent His angel was for the Angel in Rev 1:1 to not be Jesus but THIS DISTINCT being called the angel whom he sent in Rev 22.

Rev 22:16 demands that the angel in Rev 1:1 NOT BE JESUS.

However, you just gave me the greatest counter to Revelation 1:8 and any other passages where you claim Jesus speaks as if he is God. Let me give you a sample:[/B]

Revelation 1:8 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (Explanation: This passage is Jesus speaking for God)

The only way you could come to that conclusion is to WANT TO DISBELIEVE THAT JESUS IS GOD.

So now just like the claim the angel was speaking for Jesus when the angel makes a claim you believe should only apply to Jesus, just like that I am going to claim that if Jesus makes a claim that sounds like something that should only apply to God that Jesus was simply speaking for God just like you claim the angel was speaking for Jesus. Consistency I love thee soo...

Wrong. You WANT a way out for some odd reason, likely due to pride of not being wrong.

There is a good solid reason why Jesus is not the angel in Rev 22. A solid piece of evidence that disallows it. Verse 16!!! There is nothing like that in chapter 1.

And notice how I debunked Rev 22 issue, and you see it! So you STILL jump back to Rev 1 and find some grain of a loophole. It's my own argument of Rev 22! You really do not want to believe Jesus is God, do you? Even at the cost of seeing your argument of Rev 22 debunked.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Sorry. You aren't.

You have not explained why the Alpha and Omega is both the one who died and is alive (Jesus), and the Almighty. You just dodge the issue and go to Rev 22. I addressed Rev 22, which you claim I did not.

You, on the other hand, applied the principle of me saying Jesus is both the Almighty and the one who died and rose again to the Rev 22 chapter, which I debunked. But you did not explain why He is both Almighty and the resurrected one. Please do so! The focus of my point is THE ALMIGHTY reference.



You dealt with with general thought but never gave one explanation as to why Jesus would be called Almighty.

Only GOD is Almighty. Jesus is not AN Almighty. But THE Almighty. There are not a multitude of Almighties. Just one.



Sure does!

Walks in Islam said that the ANGEL in Rev 1:1 was JESUS, Hiimself. I disagreed. And He insisted, and cited Rev 22 as evidence, like you have done. But if the angel is Jesus, then it wreaks havoc on what Rev 22:16 says about Jesus SENDING HIS ANGEL. The only way Jesus could say He sent His angel was for the Angel in Rev 1:1 to not be Jesus but THIS DISTINCT being called the angel whom he sent in Rev 22.

Rev 22:16 demands that the angel in Rev 1:1 NOT BE JESUS.



The only way you could come to that conclusion is to WANT TO DISBELIEVE THAT JESUS IS GOD.



Wrong. You WANT a way out for some odd reason, likely due to pride of not being wrong.

There is a good solid reason why Jesus is not the angel in Rev 22. A solid piece of evidence that disallows it. Verse 16!!! There is nothing like that in chapter 1.

And notice how I debunked Rev 22 issue, and you see it! So you STILL jump back to Rev 1 and find some grain of a loophole. It's my own argument of Rev 22! You really do not want to believe Jesus is God, do you? Even at the cost of seeing your argument of Rev 22 debunked.

I am not looking for a way out. I haven't even really started yet. We aren't breaking the passages down word by word yet (though out of respect for Aquila I did do that. Your braying and howling doesn't warrant serious study or discussion)

Correction: You are actually the one who said that the entity that John was speaking to in Rev 1 was Jesus and Rev 22 is your baby not mine. Cut and paste is quite easy if you need a direct reminder. I only pointed out the same thing that the other gentleman pointed out - if it is Jesus then based on what both chapters say it supports my view and if it is not Jesus then based on what both chapters say it also supports my view.

There are many, many other solid verses (pending) that also support my view so if you would like to get started I am ready for them to be debunked as efficiently as you did not debunk the first ones.

No one questions the authority of Jesus nor questions that Jesus was a direct voice for God and the words of Jesus are the words of God. Jesus is among the highest messengers/prophets and even the Quran devotes much to Jesus. Jesus however does not put Himself in place of God at any time in any verse anywhere in any chapter of any book.