Question About Submission

[Abiding Now]

Originally Posted by bishoph

As to the bold section......Pure RUBBISH! Respectfully Sis. Renee I must disagree. I can without hesitation state that I am not under any peer pressure, wife pressure, or any other manmade pressure, and I BELIEVE in standards. The problem we (especially in Apostolicism/Pentecostalism) have is that standards, for the most part, are taught as holiness which is NOT what holiness is.

Standards are part/parcel to sanctification. In the OT the nation of Israel was to be sanctified from the world and unto God. Signs of their sanctification were standards concerning dress, diet, and worship/ceremony. One can argue about the ridiculous standards they had, but God set them in place regardless of how silly they seemed to them or us. For example. they could not wear clothes that were made of mixed fabric (i.e. cotton/wool or cotton/silk). Why? (I think it would be safe to say that nearly all of us would be lost (law breakers) today if this law was to be enforced today. Just look at your tags....nearly everything we wear is a mixture of materials.) The only thing we can see as the reason WHY God made this rule was so that when people looked at an Israelite they knew....those people are different....much like the Amish of today. The list can go on and on....603 of them to be exact, many of which have no reasonable explanation other than that God wanted His people to be different than those around them.

Standards are NOT what saves us, nor do they make us holy. We all know people who abide by "the standards" who are vile and wicked in their attitude and spirit bearing ungodly fruit in their lives/actions. They are "set apart" in appearance but do not possess an ounce of holiness. The truth is that even the "liberal" among us have some "standards." The challenge is who's standard do we abide by? Personally I believe there are absolute biblical standards which apply universally. Then there are standards which may be a personal "setting apart" unto God. And IMO standards are not limited to dress. There are standards of conduct and worship that make us different as well.

IMO the biggest problem we have with modesty and other biblical standards, is that we are too caught up in adapting to the culture and practices of the country we are passing through instead of the country we are citizens of.

[renee819]

Renee wrote,

Easias, it is both. Should she submit to false standards? And, I believe that if the men were submitted to God, instead of submitted to peer pressure, they would see that the standards are false. And if men were submitted to God, they would teach what true holiness is and also godly authority.
What wife would rebel against a husband, that loved his wife as his own body?

Bishop wrote,

As to the bold section......Pure RUBBISH! Respectfully Sis. Renee I must disagree. I can without hesitation state that I am not under any peer pressure, wife pressure, or any other manmade pressure, and I BELIEVE in standards. The problem we (especially in Apostolicism/Pentecostalism) have is that standards, for the most part, are taught as holiness which is NOT what holiness is.

No Bishop, it is not pure RUBBISH. I too have standards, but I know that my standards are not my holiness.

The RUBBISH is, as you said yourself, “The problem we (especially in Apostolicism/Pentecostalism) have is that standards, for the most part, are taught as holiness which is NOT what holiness is.”

So why do “WE” (maybe not you) teach that “standards are holiness?”

Do the Pastors, not know any better? Are they afraid they will lose their license? Afraid they will lose some of their members? Don't they know, if they teach that standards are holiness they are teaching a lie? Stunting the growth of their members, in not teaching them what true holiness is.

If you teach your members, what true holiness is, then you are rare, and I applaud you.

[Abiding Now]

Originally Posted by renee819

Renee wrote,


Bishop wrote,


No Bishop, it is not pure RUBBISH. I too have standards, but I know that my standards are not my holiness.

The RUBBISH is, as you said yourself, “The problem we (especially in Apostolicism/Pentecostalism) have is that standards, for the most part, are taught as holiness which is NOT what holiness is.”

So why do “WE” (maybe not you) teach that “standards are holiness?”

Do the Pastors, not know any better? Are they afraid they will lose their license? Afraid they will lose some of their members? Don't they know, if they teach that standards are holiness they are teaching a lie? Stunting the growth of their members, in not teaching them what true holiness is.

If you teach your members, what true holiness is, then you are rare, and I applaud you.

Would you please define "true holiness".

[Maritha]

what specifically have you changed your mind about?
in the church that I go to, and do not want to, there are many things i disagree with. but here is the key.
I have no intention of causing strife. Why? I consider my own salvation and keep in mind a few scriptures:
1. Proverbs 6.19 You don't want bring this discord in your home or the church. You have to keep in mind that your life is a witness to others that see you.
2. 1 Cor 13.4 Remember, love is forever. You have to keep in mind how Gods' love is never changing, but growing. His love is sweet and gentle. and His love and mercy draws us toward Him.
There are a few other things, but these are good for now.
My reason for sharing this is...I don't believe my husband ever truly felt the same for me as I do him, or used to feel for him. But I remember the vows I made for him before God. And 70 years really is a short time compared to eternity. And I know God sees all things and I believe He will take care of His Word. If I don't hold on to this I will become too angry and rebellious. And rebelliousness is like unto witchcraft. 1 Sam 15.23

[bishoph]

Originally Posted by renee819

Esaias wrote,


Easias, it is both. Should she submit to false standards? And, I believe that if the men were submitted to God, instead of submitted to peer pressure, they would see that the standards are false. And if men were submitted to God, they would teach what true holiness is and also godly authority.
What wife would rebel against a husband, that loved his wife as his own body?

Originally Posted by renee819

Renee wrote,


No Bishop, it is not pure RUBBISH. I too have standards, but I know that my standards are not my holiness.

The RUBBISH is, as you said yourself, “The problem we (especially in Apostolicism/Pentecostalism) have is that standards, for the most part, are taught as holiness which is NOT what holiness is.”

So why do “WE” (maybe not you) teach that “standards are holiness?”

Do the Pastors, not know any better? Are they afraid they will lose their license? Afraid they will lose some of their members? Don't they know, if they teach that standards are holiness they are teaching a lie? Stunting the growth of their members, in not teaching them what true holiness is.

If you teach your members, what true holiness is, then you are rare, and I applaud you.

Sis. I stand by my words. Your statement was "if the men were submitted to God, instead of submitted to peer pressure, they would see that the standards are false." So in your assessment, if a person observes standards they are not submitted to God, and IF they are submitted to God then they should realize that standards are false. False in what sense of the word? Are you saying that standards cannot/should not be taught as a matter of separation from the world? Or are you saying that standards are ALL just man-made rules which should NEVER be taught because they are made up and not true biblical teachings?

You even stated that you have standards.....but according to you they are false. Why then do you have standards?

I agree with your statement "If you teach your members, what true holiness is, then you are rare" because FEW pastors on either side (conserve/lib) teach true holiness.

[renee819]

Bishoph wrote,

Sis. I stand by my words. Your statement was "if the men were submitted to God, instead of submitted to peer pressure, they would see that the standards are false." So in your assessment, if a person observes standards they are not submitted to God,

Where did that come from? Standards are not false, but some of the standards taught are false. The way they are taught is wrong, trying to use scripture to prove what they, the Pastors, are expected to teach. There are many godly women, submitted to God, bound by 'men's standards.' Or if a lady is in Leadership she usually goes along with the “men's standards'”

Where in the Bible, does it say that a women's sleeves have to be certain length? Or dresses a certain length, (although I do love the longer skirts) Or men can't have a beard? Even though Jesus had one. Or women can't wear women's pants?
(I never did understand about the hair) but I don't and won't cut mine. (But then, I love long hair)
Or that women can't wear jewelry? They go to the OT to preach against women's pants, why don't they also look at the jewelry that Rebecca and other women had, in the OT? And many other things, sometimes according to the Pastors convictions.

Bishoph wrote,

and IF they are submitted to God then they should realize that standards are false. False in what sense of the word?

Not all standards are false. But standards taught as holiness, is false. And it doesn't take much study in the Word to find that out. If the leaders were submitted to God, and studying the scriptures concerning this, in stead of following the leader, they would see that they are teaching false standards.

Bishoph wrote,

Are you saying that standards cannot/should not be taught as a matter of separation from the world? Or are you saying that standards are ALL just man-made rules which should NEVER be taught because they are made up and not true biblical teachings?

If a Pastor wants standards they should be taught as standards. For instance, if I went to a school and after I got there they said, everybody has to wear a uniform, this is our standard. If I wanted to go to that school, I would go and buy me a uniform.
But if they said, this saith the Lord, you wear this uniform. I'd turn around and walk out.

Christians should be taught “modesty' the kind that comes from the heart. And holiness seeking to please God with a pure heart. Any modest lady, seeking true purity of heart, will not have to be told how to dress. And she will not look like the world either.

Have you seen how the world dresses lately. Much of it is plain ugly. Of course, I'm 82 years old, and maybe a little old fashioned. But it is my opinion, and this is just my opinion, 'that a modest Pentecostal lady, turned loose to dress according to her convictions, would outshine the worldly costums, any old time.

Bishoph wrote

You even stated that you have standards.....but according to you they are false. Why then do you have standards?

I believe I've stated my standards above, and no, they are not false. A person has to have standards, but they should come from their own convictions. When a person is forced to adhere to a standard that is not their conviction, their heart isn't in it.

Bishoph wrote,

I agree with your statement "If you teach your members, what true holiness is, then you are rare" because FEW pastors on either side (conserve/lib) teach true holiness

.

And that is exactly what I am talking about. WHY!!!!, isn't TRUE HOLINESS taught in our churches, instead of standards being taught as holiness? There has to be a reason.

[Mrsnt]

Originally Posted by renee819

Bishoph wrote,


Where did that come from? Standards are not false, but some of the standards taught are false. The way they are taught is wrong, trying to use scripture to prove what they, the Pastors, are expected to teach. There are many godly women, submitted to God, bound by 'men's standards.' Or if a lady is in Leadership she usually goes along with the “men's standards'”

Where in the Bible, does it say that a women's sleeves have to be certain length? Or dresses a certain length, (although I do love the longer skirts) Or men can't have a beard? Even though Jesus had one. Or women can't wear women's pants?
(I never did understand about the hair) but I don't and won't cut mine. (But then, I love long hair)
Or that women can't wear jewelry? They go to the OT to preach against women's pants, why don't they also look at the jewelry that Rebecca and other women had, in the OT? And many other things, sometimes according to the Pastors convictions.

Bishoph wrote,


Not all standards are false. But standards taught as holiness, is false. And it doesn't take much study in the Word to find that out. If the leaders were submitted to God, and studying the scriptures concerning this, in stead of following the leader, they would see that they are teaching false standards.

Bishoph wrote,


If a Pastor wants standards they should be taught as standards. For instance, if I went to a school and after I got there they said, everybody has to wear a uniform, this is our standard. If I wanted to go to that school, I would go and buy me a uniform.
But if they said, this saith the Lord, you wear this uniform. I'd turn around and walk out.

Christians should be taught “modesty' the kind that comes from the heart. And holiness seeking to please God with a pure heart. Any modest lady, seeking true purity of heart, will not have to be told how to dress. And she will not look like the world either.

Have you seen how the world dresses lately. Much of it is plain ugly. Of course, I'm 82 years old, and maybe a little old fashioned. But it is my opinion, and this is just my opinion, 'that a modest Pentecostal lady, turned loose to dress according to her convictions, would outshine the worldly costums, any old time.

Bishoph wrote


I believe I've stated my standards above, and no, they are not false. A person has to have standards, but they should come from their own convictions. When a person is forced to adhere to a standard that is not their conviction, their heart isn't in it.

Bishoph wrote,
.

And that is exactly what I am talking about. WHY!!!!, isn't TRUE HOLINESS taught in our churches, instead of standards being taught as holiness? There has to be a reason.

Excellent reply! You're a wise lady.

[Mrsnt]

Originally Posted by Maritha

what specifically have you changed your mind about?

I first changed my view about hair. I no longer believe that the Bible teaches that women must never trim/cut their hair.

Realizing the error of this teaching, I began to question other conservative Pentecostal teachings and have come to believe they are false also. I no longer believe that the "holiness standards" generally required to be a part of the UPC, WPF, etc. are biblical.

I don't want to be forced to obey a teaching that I believe to be false and legalistic. I don't believe that anyone has the God-given authority to make me do that.

Originally Posted by Maritha

in the church that I go to, and do not want to, there are many things i disagree with. but here is the key.
I have no intention of causing strife. Why? I consider my own salvation and keep in mind a few scriptures:
1. Proverbs 6.19 You don't want bring this discord in your home or the church. You have to keep in mind that your life is a witness to others that see you.

This is exactly why I feel compelled to change the way that I live. My life IS a witness to others. I don't want to be a false witness.

I don't want to cause strife, either, but, let's be realistic. No matter what I do, SOMEBODY is gonna disapprove. At some point, I have to stop caring so much about what others think and care more for what the Lord thinks.

Originally Posted by Maritha

2. 1 Cor 13.4 Remember, love is forever. You have to keep in mind how Gods' love is never changing, but growing. His love is sweet and gentle. and His love and mercy draws us toward Him.
There are a few other things, but these are good for now.
My reason for sharing this is...I don't believe my husband ever truly felt the same for me as I do him, or used to feel for him. But I remember the vows I made for him before God. And 70 years really is a short time compared to eternity. And I know God sees all things and I believe He will take care of His Word. If I don't hold on to this I will become too angry and rebellious. And rebelliousness is like unto witchcraft. 1 Sam 15.23

Thank you for your kind thoughts. I appreciate it.

[Abiding Now]

Seems like there's a whole bunch of rebellious wimmen on this thread...................


But hey, no need for violence here. Down lady! I said DOWN! what are you doing? Put that ax away!


































J/K!!!

[Roxanne Murphy]

The reason why 'standards' are taught as 'holiness' is because they are outward and become an easy way to see who is or isn't lining up. But the most awful thing about this, other than it is unbiblical, is that it causes people to focus on the outward. I know what it is to be in a church where fornication is going on in the church leadership, but because everybody 'looks holy' they are okay.
When there is preaching about making sure those elbows and knees are covered but no teaching about being honest in your personal business dealings or messages about the dangers of lip gloss but no preaching about what a sun it is to slander a brother or bear false witness against a neighbor.