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| Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other. |
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06-05-2007, 03:58 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Portage la Prairie, MB CANADA
Posts: 38,161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crakjak
Sorry, I don't see the implications that you inject into these verses at all.
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Let everyone be fully persuaded in his own mind. It was plain to me, anyway.
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There are many more scriptures to explore, however your mind seems to be made up, I don't see much of a basis for exploring further at this time.
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CJ, the same can be said of you. You have your mind made up. Like I said, the bible could have plainly stated this issue, but I see no plain statement. Just alleged implications.
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I can respect you as a brother in Christ w/o agreeing on every subject, so be blessed. Thanks for the exchange.
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Ditto, and God bless! 
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06-09-2007, 06:37 PM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood too
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 40,196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crakjak
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa
CJ, the hearing that the writer is speaking about is teaching. When we look at the chapter it's speaking about those hearing the word, not just as audible sound but as instruction. When you say that eventually all will hear the word that is not true. During the first century AD their were people living in east Asia, Australia, North and South America who never hear the teachings of Christ. So please CJ explain your thought on how every single human being from Adam to now will be saved? 
Romans 5:10-21
10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
John 1:29 "Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world"
1John 2:2 "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world"
These verses and many more explain my faith in the greater hope of all mankind. |
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CJ I totally understand the scripture verse you quoted, but you still need to rightly divide the scripture.
Romans 5:18-19
"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
The gift comes upon ALL men who believeth.
Mar 16:16
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
The "he" is the "all"
Joh 3:15-16
"That WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
WHOSOEVER is the ALL that confuses the universalistic teaching.
Whosoever \Who`so*ev"er\ (h[=oo]`s[-o]*[e^]v"[~e]r), pron.
Whatsoever person; any person whatever that; whoever.
Joh 3:17-18
"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the WORLD through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
No one will be saved unless they believe in the authority of the name of Jesus.
The Gospel is offered to ALL but only to all who believe.
In Jesus Name
Brother Benincasa
www.OnTimeJournal.com
__________________
"Nikita Khruschev said, "the living will envy the dead," why are so many people bent on surviving a nuclear war?
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06-10-2007, 01:01 AM
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crakjak
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: dallas area
Posts: 7,605
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa
CJ I totally understand the scripture verse you quoted, but you still need to rightly divide the scripture.
Romans 5:18-19
"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."
The gift comes upon ALL men who believeth.
Mar 16:16
"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
The "he" is the "all"
Joh 3:15-16
"That WHOSOEVER believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
WHOSOEVER is the ALL that confuses the universalistic teaching.
Whosoever \Who`so*ev"er\ (h[=oo]`s[-o]*[e^]v"[~e]r), pron.
Whatsoever person; any person whatever that; whoever.
Joh 3:17-18
"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the WORLD through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
No one will be saved unless they believe in the authority of the name of Jesus.
The Gospel is offered to ALL but only to all who believe. |
"He...is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the WHOLE WORLD" 1Jn. 2.2
All mankind recieves legal forgiveness in Christ for their inherited sin in Adam. Yet, in relational forgiveness, forgiveness depends on each person's individual responses to God's truth revealed in each heart.
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06-10-2007, 12:36 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,888
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crakjak
"He...is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the WHOLE WORLD" 1Jn. 2.2
All mankind recieves legal forgiveness in Christ for their inherited sin in Adam. Yet, in relational forgiveness, forgiveness depends on each person's individual responses to God's truth revealed in each heart. |
Could you explain "whosever believeth should NOT PERISH" means. I see the point about all being reconciled. But why the warning about perishing if all be saved in the end.
__________________
Today pull up the little weeds,
The sinful thoughts subdue,
Or they will take the reins themselves
And someday master you. --Anon.
The most deadly sins do not leap upon us, they creep up on us.
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06-10-2007, 03:01 PM
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crakjak
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: dallas area
Posts: 7,605
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Truthseeker
Could you explain "whosever believeth should NOT PERISH" means. I see the point about all being reconciled. But why the warning about perishing if all be saved in the end.
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Jesus in addition to reconciling us to God, which literally means that we have been justified by what Jesus accomplished, Jesus said He came that we would have abundant life. However, if men refuse to enter into this life, then they lose this life, and their life on earth perishes, which means to waste.
Jesus is the door to this life, he is the narrow way and the strait gate, but few find His life, most continue in the broadway and they waste the opportunity to receive His abundant life NOW, to become His elect, that will participate in the bringing of the nations to righteous as kings and priest to our God.
The perishing will enter into the refiners fire to remove the dross and chaff, in order to enter into the kingdom. In the book of Revelation we find in the New Jerusalem leaves of the trees in that city are for the "healing of the nations (peoples) (Rev22:2), outside the city there are all kinds of sinners (Rev22:15). These sinners are invited to come, into the city, whose gates are never closed ( Rev 21:25). When traditions says these sinners should be in "endless torment" the Spirit (God) and the Bride (the believers) are still saying "Come, all who are thirsty come and take of the water of life freely" (Rev22:17).
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06-10-2007, 05:32 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 6,888
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crakjak
Jesus in addition to reconciling us to God, which literally means that we have been justified by what Jesus accomplished, Jesus said He came that we would have abundant life. However, if men refuse to enter into this life, then they lose this life, and their life on earth perishes, which means to waste.
Jesus is the door to this life, he is the narrow way and the strait gate, but few find His life, most continue in the broadway and they waste the opportunity to receive His abundant life NOW, to become His elect, that will participate in the bringing of the nations to righteous as kings and priest to our God.
The perishing will enter into the refiners fire to remove the dross and chaff, in order to enter into the kingdom. In the book of Revelation we find in the New Jerusalem leaves of the trees in that city are for the "healing of the nations (peoples) (Rev22:2), outside the city there are all kinds of sinners (Rev22:15). These sinners are invited to come, into the city, whose gates are never closed ( Rev 21:25). When traditions says these sinners should be in "endless torment" the Spirit (God) and the Bride (the believers) are still saying "Come, all who are thirsty come and take of the water of life freely" (Rev22:17). |
I'll have to look at perishing closer, as far as the New Jerusalem, that is the church and now is.
__________________
Today pull up the little weeds,
The sinful thoughts subdue,
Or they will take the reins themselves
And someday master you. --Anon.
The most deadly sins do not leap upon us, they creep up on us.
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06-10-2007, 08:30 PM
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crakjak
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: dallas area
Posts: 7,605
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[QUOTE=Truthseeker;149145]I'll have to look at perishing closer, as far as the New Jerusalem, that is the church and now is.[/QUOTE]
Yes, that is a preterist view, and I continue to study it from that position. Yet, the view that God will not end His pursuit of a man till he willingly submits to Him is more in line with the attributes of a Heavenly Father.
I recommend Thomas Talbott's book: "The Enescapable Love of God" it is available online www.upublish.com/books/talbott.htm
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06-11-2007, 01:37 AM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood too
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 40,196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crakjak
"He...is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the WHOLE WORLD" 1Jn. 2.2
All mankind recieves legal forgiveness in Christ for their inherited sin in Adam. Yet, in relational forgiveness, forgiveness depends on each person's individual responses to God's truth revealed in each heart. |
CJ, I really don't understand how you're getting the universal call "to" salvation with a doctrine of everyone being saved regardless of condition.
Mat 22:9
"Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage."
Mar 16:15
"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to EVERY CREATURE."
The apostles were told to preach the Gospel to every creature, but when you get to the ver next verse...
Mar 16:16
"He that BELIEVETH and is baptized shall be SAVED; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
CJ, only baptized believers are saved those who are not believers are damned.
Mat 22:14
"For MANY are called, but FEW are chosen."
MANY are called because the Gospel is preached to EVERY creature, but still he that BELIEVETH and IS BAPTIZED are the ones who will make heaven their home. Those who BELIEVETH NOT will spllt hell wide open.
Rom 10:12-17
"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto ALL THAT CALL UPON HIM. For WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
CJ, the scriptures are certainly showing the reader that one must be a seeker who comes to believe that Jesus is Lord and is willing to repent after they hear the preached word. The salvation is just for those who call on the name of the Lord. The "ALL" and the "WHOSOEVER" are those who believe and call on Jesus name in water baptism. Anything else will miss glory.
Faith still comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God.
Isa 45:22-25
"Look unto ME, and BE YE SAVED, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the WORD IS GONE OUT OF MY MOUTH in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and ALL that are incensed against him shall be ASHAMED. In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory."
The "ALL" Israel who would be SAVED are those who would "look toward GOD"
Those who would be "INCENSED" against GOD, would be "ASHAMED."
CJ the scripture qualifies itself by letting us know who the "all" and "everyone" are. All will be saved, but just the "all" who believe and are baptized and in filled with the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues.
Isa 55:1
"Ho, every one that THIRSTETH, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price."
Only those who "THIRSTETH" will be saved.
Joh 7:37-38
"In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If ANY MAN THIRST, let him come unto me, and drink. He that BELIEVETH ON ME, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."
Every man who is thirsty and who believes as the scriptures speak only those are the "many" who will miss hell.
Rev 22:17
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."
The call is offered to "all" men, but it will be taken only by those who hear the call and are thirsty.
In Jesus name
Brother Benincasa
www.OnTimeJournal.com
__________________
"Nikita Khruschev said, "the living will envy the dead," why are so many people bent on surviving a nuclear war?
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06-11-2007, 09:46 AM
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crakjak
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: dallas area
Posts: 7,605
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa
CJ, I really don't understand how you're getting the universal call "to" salvation with a doctrine of everyone being saved regardless of condition.
Mat 22:9
"Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage."
Mar 16:15
"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to EVERY CREATURE."
The apostles were told to preach the Gospel to every creature, but when you get to the ver next verse...
Mar 16:16
"He that BELIEVETH and is baptized shall be SAVED; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
CJ, only baptized believers are saved those who are not believers are damned.
Mat 22:14
"For MANY are called, but FEW are chosen."
MANY are called because the Gospel is preached to EVERY creature, but still he that BELIEVETH and IS BAPTIZED are the ones who will make heaven their home. Those who BELIEVETH NOT will spllt hell wide open.
Rom 10:12-17
"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto ALL THAT CALL UPON HIM. For WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
CJ, the scriptures are certainly showing the reader that one must be a seeker who comes to believe that Jesus is Lord and is willing to repent after they hear the preached word. The salvation is just for those who call on the name of the Lord. The "ALL" and the "WHOSOEVER" are those who believe and call on Jesus name in water baptism. Anything else will miss glory.
Faith still comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God.
Isa 45:22-25
"Look unto ME, and BE YE SAVED, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the WORD IS GONE OUT OF MY MOUTH in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and ALL that are incensed against him shall be ASHAMED. In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory."
The "ALL" Israel who would be SAVED are those who would "look toward GOD"
Those who would be "INCENSED" against GOD, would be "ASHAMED."
CJ the scripture qualifies itself by letting us know who the "all" and "everyone" are. All will be saved, but just the "all" who believe and are baptized and in filled with the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues.
Isa 55:1
"Ho, every one that THIRSTETH, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price."
Only those who "THIRSTETH" will be saved.
Joh 7:37-38
"In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If ANY MAN THIRST, let him come unto me, and drink. He that BELIEVETH ON ME, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."
Every man who is thirsty and who believes as the scriptures speak only those are the "many" who will miss hell.
Rev 22:17
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."
The call is offered to "all" men, but it will be taken only by those who hear the call and are thirsty. |
The scriptures in your post, confirm that unless someone accepts and enters into water of life they will continue to be thirsty and they will miss out on abundant life. These verses speak of being saved, the question is saved from what? The answer is "the wrath of God", what is the wrath of a father, but that that will correct the wayward child. In other words, these scriptures do not indicate annihilation nor "endless torment", only that those who do not believe cannot without faith enter in. Not that they will never enter in. Those that do not enter into life will enter into purging, correction, punishment, fire, eternal fire (fire that continues until it accomplishes it purpose), lake of fire, but nowhere when properly interperted is this process without end.
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06-11-2007, 09:48 AM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 11,903
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa
CJ, I really don't understand how you're getting the universal call "to" salvation with a doctrine of everyone being saved regardless of condition.
Mat 22:9
"Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage."
Mar 16:15
"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to EVERY CREATURE."
The apostles were told to preach the Gospel to every creature, but when you get to the ver next verse...
Mar 16:16
"He that BELIEVETH and is baptized shall be SAVED; but he that believeth not shall be damned."
CJ, only baptized believers are saved those who are not believers are damned.
Mat 22:14
"For MANY are called, but FEW are chosen."
MANY are called because the Gospel is preached to EVERY creature, but still he that BELIEVETH and IS BAPTIZED are the ones who will make heaven their home. Those who BELIEVETH NOT will spllt hell wide open.
Rom 10:12-17
"For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto ALL THAT CALL UPON HIM. For WHOSOEVER SHALL CALL UPON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
CJ, the scriptures are certainly showing the reader that one must be a seeker who comes to believe that Jesus is Lord and is willing to repent after they hear the preached word. The salvation is just for those who call on the name of the Lord. The "ALL" and the "WHOSOEVER" are those who believe and call on Jesus name in water baptism. Anything else will miss glory.
Faith still comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God.
Isa 45:22-25
"Look unto ME, and BE YE SAVED, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the WORD IS GONE OUT OF MY MOUTH in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear. Surely, shall one say, in the LORD have I righteousness and strength: even to him shall men come; and ALL that are incensed against him shall be ASHAMED. In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory."
The "ALL" Israel who would be SAVED are those who would "look toward GOD"
Those who would be "INCENSED" against GOD, would be "ASHAMED."
CJ the scripture qualifies itself by letting us know who the "all" and "everyone" are. All will be saved, but just the "all" who believe and are baptized and in filled with the Holy Ghost speaking in tongues.
Isa 55:1
"Ho, every one that THIRSTETH, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price."
Only those who "THIRSTETH" will be saved.
Joh 7:37-38
"In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If ANY MAN THIRST, let him come unto me, and drink. He that BELIEVETH ON ME, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water."
Every man who is thirsty and who believes as the scriptures speak only those are the "many" who will miss hell.
Rev 22:17
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."
The call is offered to "all" men, but it will be taken only by those who hear the call and are thirsty.
In Jesus name
Brother Benincasa
www.OnTimeJournal.com |
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