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  #131  
Old 05-16-2012, 06:19 AM
aegsm76 aegsm76 is offline
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Re: Why is endorsing gay marriage/civil unions bad

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfrog View Post
For the age of consent for marriage the point is that there is a reasonable age of consent for marriage. It don't have to be 16 and I certainly don't mind certain exceptions to that age being granted on a case by case basis. However, the age must be a reasonable one, for example no 5 year olds, and also the exceptions granted must deal in part with the maturity level of the one seeking the exception and the reason as to why he or she is seeking such an exception. So who does having an age of consent protect? It protects the child from his/her actions of wanting a marriage and/or the parents actions from pushing them into a marriage at a young age. Therefore age of consent for marriage has to do with protecting children.

Laws against incest are about protecting us against those who are close to us from pursuing us sexually. The argument against incest is and never has really been due to the possibility of birth defects. That being said, I dont mind seeing certain exceptions to this rule against incest being made, for example two people that were related and fell in love but had no idea they were kin till near the wedding date. To further comment, kin pursing kin is closer to a teacher or professor pursing a student. Kin are supposed to be family and as such they have a unique purpose and they should not use that role to try and get in our pants.

So who exactly are laws against SSM and MPM protecting? Until you can answer that question don't even try to use the slippery slope argument that allowing them is going to allow the age of consent for marriage law to be done away or allow incest laws to be repealed.
jf - good points. This is why I like well-reasoned non-flame throwing "discussions". However, these sometimes take way too much of my time to think through!
Here are a couple of well-reasoned articles on this topic:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...against-incest

snippets

The rationale for the prohibition of sibling incest is not all that easy to find.
The constitutional court also said that the prohibition of incest was rooted in "cultural history".
Then there is the danger of the passing on of genetic diseases. That is a difficult one. On the basis of this reason, should all prospective parents undergo genetic screening?
And finally, the question of morals. That sounds old-fashioned and smells of great-aunt Mabel's Bible class. All the same – large parts of modern criminal law cannot be adequately explained without the moral views behind the rule.

End of snippets

A really good story below, that talks about the legal fallout from the Supreme Court striking down the Texas sodomy law.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/arti...607322,00.html

snippet

When the Supreme Court struck down Texas's law against sodomy in the summer of 2003, in the landmark gay rights case of Lawrence v. Texas, critics warned that its sweeping support of a powerful doctrine of privacy could lead to challenges of state laws that forbade such things as gay marriage and bigamy. "State laws against bigamy, same-sex marriage, adult incest, prostitution, masturbation, adultery, fornication, bestiality, and obscenity are ... called into question by today's decision," wrote Justice Antonin Scalia, in a withering dissent he read aloud page by page from the bench.

It turns out the critics were right. Plaintiffs have made the decision the centerpiece of attempts to defeat state bans on the sale of sex toys in Alabama, polygamy in Utah and adoptions by gay couples in Florida. So far the challenges have been unsuccessful. But plaintiffs are still trying, even using Lawrence to challenge laws against incest.
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  #132  
Old 05-16-2012, 09:11 AM
bbyrd009 bbyrd009 is offline
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Re: Why is endorsing gay marriage/civil unions bad

Quote:
Originally Posted by jfrog View Post
For the age of consent for marriage the point is that there is a reasonable age of consent for marriage. It don't have to be 16 and I certainly don't mind certain exceptions to that age being granted on a case by case basis. However, the age must be a reasonable one, for example no 5 year olds, and also the exceptions granted must deal in part with the maturity level of the one seeking the exception and the reason as to why he or she is seeking such an exception. So who does having an age of consent protect? It protects the child from his/her actions of wanting a marriage and/or the parents actions from pushing them into a marriage at a young age. Therefore age of consent for marriage has to do with protecting children.

Laws against incest are about protecting us against those who are close to us from pursuing us sexually. The argument against incest is and never has really been due to the possibility of birth defects. That being said, I dont mind seeing certain exceptions to this rule against incest being made, for example two people that were related and fell in love but had no idea they were kin till near the wedding date. To further comment, kin pursing kin is closer to a teacher or professor pursing a student. Kin are supposed to be family and as such they have a unique purpose and they should not use that role to try and get in our pants.

So who exactly are laws against SSM and MPM protecting? Until you can answer that question don't even try to use the slippery slope argument that allowing them is going to allow the age of consent for marriage law to be done away or allow incest laws to be repealed.
Ok, touche'. I am persuaded, as I am convinced that God needs no protection.
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  #133  
Old 05-17-2012, 06:23 AM
aegsm76 aegsm76 is offline
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Re: Why is endorsing gay marriage/civil unions bad

I found this ironic, after my postings on pages 10 and 11.

link

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ore--nude.html

snippet
"A 49-year-old woman could face 90 days in jail after strolling through a lumber store with no clothes on.

Barbara Lafleur, of Saratoga Springs, New York, no doubt shocked customers as she traipsed through the aisles and told an employee to 'have a good day' and asked for the time on Tuesday.

LaFleur has brushed off the incident, however, insisting it is her right to walk freely in the nude as a form of 'self-expression'. "

The only objection that we have to public nudity is morals based.
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  #134  
Old 05-18-2012, 09:35 AM
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Re: Why is endorsing gay marriage/civil unions bad

Quote:
Originally Posted by aegsm76 View Post
I found this ironic, after my postings on pages 10 and 11.

link

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ore--nude.html

snippet
"A 49-year-old woman could face 90 days in jail after strolling through a lumber store with no clothes on.

Barbara Lafleur, of Saratoga Springs, New York, no doubt shocked customers as she traipsed through the aisles and told an employee to 'have a good day' and asked for the time on Tuesday.

LaFleur has brushed off the incident, however, insisting it is her right to walk freely in the nude as a form of 'self-expression'. "

The only objection that we have to public nudity is morals based.


May I have some therapy now? My brain is nearly fried trying to hold my thoughts in place.
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  #135  
Old 05-23-2012, 10:02 PM
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Re: Why is endorsing gay marriage/civil unions bad

COGIC TAKES STAND AGAINST SAME SEX MARRIAGE

source http://www.charismanews.com/us/33464...e-sex-marriage

The Church of God in Christ (COGIC) is joining the Assemblies of God and other Christian bodies in speaking about against President Obama’s endorsement of same-sex marriage.

COGIC is a Pentecostal Holiness Christian denomination with a predominantly African-American membership. COGIC has about 5 million members and 12,000 congregations in the United States. The following is COGIC’s official statement regarding same-sex marriage and civil unions:
“The president’s position regarding ‘same-sex marriage’ has set off a ‘firestorm,’ unlike any other debate in our civil society, perhaps, since the civil rights unrest of the mid-20th century.

“The advocacy for same-sex marriage, while in conflict with our nation’s long-standing moral posture, has indeed created opportunity for the church to communicate our unequivocal position about God’s design and foundation for humanity, the biblical mandate for heterosexuality through the bonds of matrimony and the centuries-old understanding of the only acceptable means of procreation, habitation and the establishment of the family.
“The president suggests same-sex relationships and male-female relationships committed to by oath before God and/or witnesses, where formal documents are signed before a civil or ecclesiastical figure. It further implies that both are equally good and valuable. In addition to this, it suggests that both equally contribute to the good and advancement of a society. From a fundamental view of Scripture, the same word should not be used to describe both same-sex and heterosexual relationships.

“Fundamentally, traditionally and historically, marriage has functioned to unite a man and women together in facing the challenges of life, to sanctify sexual involvement, to authorize the conception of children, provide an environment for the protection and development of offspring and to strengthen and sustain the family unit.

“Historically, the sexual coming together of husband and wife produces children who are the fruit of both their bodies and are united by blood to their brothers and sisters. This coming together of husband and wife is the means by which the world has been populated, and the human race sustained.

“A husband, wife and children are the bedrock of a society which also mirrors the universal church as a microcosm, or domestic church, out of which God’s values are modeled, nurtured and disciplined. This divinely inspired family framework, pronounced in Old and New Testament Scripture, is without compromise. To tamper with the foundation is to disrupt the order God intended. This order is the intended structure by which all humanity is expected to govern their lives.

“The human body is designed by God as male and female to anatomically accommodate individuals of the opposite sex in the conception, bearing and nurture of children; the human body is unquestionably designed to accommodate individuals of the opposite sex, not of the same sex.

“The Holy Bible, which is the authoritative Word of God, clearly prohibits sexual relations between members of the same sex. Though it does not isolate intercourse between individuals of the same sex as the only sin, it designates this and a series of other activities as sinful behavior from which the Christian is to abstain

1 Cor. 6:9-11 (NKJV) says, ‘Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.’ (See also: Leviticus 18:22; Romans 1:26-27; and 1 Timothy 1:8).

“The Bible indicates that there is nothing that can excuse or eliminate the sinfulness of sexual involvement between individuals of the same sex. Neither so called “marriage vows,” civil unions, nor homosexual drives or passions are recognized by the Bible as justifications or acceptable excuses or rationale for sexual acts between individuals of the same sex. Sinful desires and inclinations must be resisted and overcome by the power of God in Christ Jesus, and by power of the Holy Spirit who strengthens our minds and our wills.

Our vocabularies are made up of thousands of words because there are so many distinctive entities and concepts to be referred to. Each word designates a category of entities which are unique to that word. Specific words are most useful when they reflect identical images, and when they do not create conflicting or unclear images in the mind of the speaker and the hearer.

“The Bible defines marriage as a relationship between one man and one woman (Genesis 2:24; 1 Corinthians 7:2; 1 Timothy 3:2, 12; Titus 1:6). To define marriage otherwise is to dilute and destroy its usefulness as a word which denotes what is highest and best about human society.
“While we are committed to proclaim and support the tenants of the Bible, and also to persuade others to do so, we recognize that in a free and democratic society morality cannot be legislated. We oppose violence and discrimination against individuals or groups because of sexual orientation. We do not feel that it is necessary to legalize same-sex marriage to provide the civil benefits and civil rights to all regardless of sexual orientation.

“We proclaim the value and worth of every human being regardless of sexual orientation.
“But, we passionately and unapologetically defend the right of faith communities to maintain the integrity of their message, mission and identity. We welcome to the church all people who seek to serve and know God and His Word.”
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  #136  
Old 05-24-2012, 05:09 AM
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Re: Why is endorsing gay marriage/civil unions bad

Lol. I had a discussion recently with someone about this. He was a Roman Catholic, and while he saw homosexuality as a sin, he didn't oppose homosexual marriage. I immediately pointed out, that if God condemned the act itself so seriously, what would his reaction be to not only doing the act, but then committing to a relationship which God himself set up?! You can't see homosexuality as a sin, yet support homosexual marriage. It's a catch-22. What God won't stand for, neither can we. He still doesn't quite agree, unfortunately.
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  #137  
Old 05-24-2012, 08:45 AM
aegsm76 aegsm76 is offline
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Re: Why is endorsing gay marriage/civil unions bad

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Originally Posted by ground000 View Post
Lol. I had a discussion recently with someone about this. He was a Roman Catholic, and while he saw homosexuality as a sin, he didn't oppose homosexual marriage. I immediately pointed out, that if God condemned the act itself so seriously, what would his reaction be to not only doing the act, but then committing to a relationship which God himself set up?! You can't see homosexuality as a sin, yet support homosexual marriage. It's a catch-22. What God won't stand for, neither can we. He still doesn't quite agree, unfortunately.
You might ask him if he believes multiple partner's should be able to be married, as well.
Using the same logic that is applied to approve same-sex marriage, you cannot say no.
I have been able to convince some people to change their opinion on same-sex with this point.
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  #138  
Old 05-24-2012, 09:26 AM
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Re: Why is endorsing gay marriage/civil unions bad

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Originally Posted by ground000 View Post
Lol. I had a discussion recently with someone about this. He was a Roman Catholic, and while he saw homosexuality as a sin, he didn't oppose homosexual marriage. I immediately pointed out, that if God condemned the act itself so seriously, what would his reaction be to not only doing the act, but then committing to a relationship which God himself set up?! You can't see homosexuality as a sin, yet support homosexual marriage. It's a catch-22. What God won't stand for, neither can we. He still doesn't quite agree, unfortunately.
This may sound strange to some of you but I can see it that way also.

The way I understand the Bible it is wrong to live the homosexual lifestyle. Same sex relations are wrong in the eyes of God. This was clear in the Old Testament and is also spoken about in the New Testament. Because I am a believer and have committed my life to Jesus Christ it would be wrong for me to engage in homosexual activity.

However, not everyone has committed themselves to God. Many choose to live outside His covenant. Since they have not committed to live according to the Scriptures, how can we incorporate the Scriptures into our civil laws and compel everyone --Christian or not---to live according to our understanding of the Scriptures?

There are lots of people living together in both homosexual and heterosexual relationships which are not "legally married" and therefore do not have some of the same rights as those who are legally married.
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  #139  
Old 05-24-2012, 10:53 AM
aegsm76 aegsm76 is offline
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Re: Why is endorsing gay marriage/civil unions bad

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Originally Posted by Sam View Post
This may sound strange to some of you but I can see it that way also.

The way I understand the Bible it is wrong to live the homosexual lifestyle. Same sex relations are wrong in the eyes of God. This was clear in the Old Testament and is also spoken about in the New Testament. Because I am a believer and have committed my life to Jesus Christ it would be wrong for me to engage in homosexual activity.

However, not everyone has committed themselves to God. Many choose to live outside His covenant. Since they have not committed to live according to the Scriptures, how can we incorporate the Scriptures into our civil laws and compel everyone --Christian or not---to live according to our understanding of the Scriptures?

There are lots of people living together in both homosexual and heterosexual relationships which are not "legally married" and therefore do not have some of the same rights as those who are legally married.
Sam, I also see it that way. However, that argument does not go over so well, with some individuals.
I think some even here do not believe it that way, which I find somewhat disturbing.
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  #140  
Old 05-24-2012, 02:43 PM
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Re: Why is endorsing gay marriage/civil unions bad

some more action on this subject:

http://www.charismanews.com/us/33473...age-act-repeal
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