The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel

[Sabby]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

I typed a post that took me 40 minutes and then tried to post it and was told I wasn't logged in and lost the whole thing. What a bummer.

Long and short of it, they are not going to hear. The information I have to share is common to anyone who has studied even basic church history or read even the most basic Bible commentary such as Thru the Bible with J. vernon Mcgee or the Be Series by Warren Wiersbe. Or much more studied commentaries such as those by G. Campbell Morgan, F.F. Bruce and john MacArthur.

Basically if they're not going to hear John MacArthur, perhaps the most well respected living Bible teacher and certainly one of the leaders of evangelical christianity in our times, then they aren't going to listen to me. If they are not willing to hear Martin Luther, John Wesley, Charles Spurgeon, John Huss, etc,etc,etc, they are not going to hear me.

One of these ministers who is prominent grew up (as far as I understand) NOT believing in tithing. most people nowdays do not realize that many pentecostal/apostolic churches DID NOT believe in tithing for a very long time. Thats not something widely mentioned. It really wasn't until the pentecostals mirrored the traditional denominations, with buildings like the rest and instutions like the rest that the majority of churches accepted tithing.

Anyway, as for my being heard, I'm being heard on here. On google. My tithing threads on AFF have generated thousands and thousands of views, so someone is hearing. Occasionally i get messages from strangers on the topic because they came across some of my posts on the internet so thats good enough for me.

The reason I am so adamant is not to chagne the church. i've studied enough Christian history to see that NEVER works out. Luther wanted to remain in the Catholic Church, Wesley wanted to remian in the Church of England, and the same can be said for basically the head of every new branch of Christianity since the reformation. Reformation from within doesn't historically work. Thats not the reason i am so adamant. I am not such a stickler becuae I don't want people paying tithes. If someone wants to pay tithes, let them pay tithes. If they want to give 20%, 30% have at it. Most middle class families in America can afford tithes, its not a burden to them. Its a little different when preaching to the very poorest in society, or when preaching in thrid world countries or Islamic regimes where christians are oppressed. And thats why I am so adamantly against tithing, because it destroys the poor and lower class people. Again I say to them it makes God a lein holder and a landlord. A diety who must be approached and appeased by the giving of money. It makes salvation by corruptible things like silver and gold, rather than the precious blood of Christ. It denies the biblical theology of grace and rips the tithe out of the Mosaic law. It denies the New Testament model of eldership in the church and a plurality of bishops ALL of whom were equals (and equally to be supported as taught in 1 Timothy 5;17), denies the priesthood of the believer (thus the right to be supported by tithes), often forgets the poor, needy, widows, and orphans-OR gives only a small percentage to such causes while the lions share goes to one man, and more than anything destroys the character of God by making Him vindictive towards anyone in noncompliance after the examples of Achan, Ananias, and Saphrrira, which results in many people serving God through fear, and even destoying the faith of some for the sake of money. both the former is especially evident in basically every tithing thread in the history of AFF.

Jason, I appreciate your passion on this subject!
Saints have been guilted into this financial trip for far too long! It boils down to true biblical stewardship and how we are to respond to Jesus' mandate to feed, clothe, support, visit those in need; our "neighbors".
Supporting a work becomes an obligation instead of an opportunity to bless.

A very good friend of mine starting an inner city work last year was posting devotionals on a ministerial FB site (Doing it on an internal FB site was probably not wise). He made the mistake of posting his similar position as yours, and was removed from his own fellowship's site! The response was, I thought, as amazing as it was rapid.

Pastors fear losing "their tithes". The problem is, for the most part, they are only doing what they have been taught. Eventually it becomes systemic.

My experience a few years ago was that people will think they no longer have to give at all, thinking that since tithing isn't "required", then neither is giving. We have to change the terminology or definition or what it means to give financially in the NT, at the same time understanding that the phrase "to tithe" may be imbedded in believer's minds so deeply that it may still be used but will need to be phrased differently without making it an obligation. I hope that makes sense.

I would be interested in any book you write on the subject, Jason.

[Sabby]

My first pastor taught that the servant was not above his master, and this included the pastor. He taught that the preacher should never live above the "means" of the congregation and that we should give as the Lord has given. He was not a hard-line tithe preacher and had the largest foreign missions work with the most $$$ contributed to the UPC headquarters in K-Town than any other. He was ahead of his time.
When the offering was received there were time when we had ears of corn and produce in the offering plate instead of Deutchmarks.

[Sabby]

His wife made the comment that he (the pastor) was "ruining" us (his congregation). In a way she was right. We were a bunch of square pegs coming to a UPC world of round holes once stateside. I think it worked out together for good.

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by Sabby

My first pastor taught that the servant was not above his master, and this included the pastor. He taught that the preacher should never live above the "means" of the congregation and that we should give as the Lord has given. He was not a hard-line tithe preacher and had the largest foreign missions work with the most $$$ contributed to the UPC headquarters in K-Town than any other. He was ahead of his time.
When the offering was received there were time when we had ears of corn and produce in the offering plate instead of Deutchmarks.

This truly is a wise Pastor. What a concept!

[Sabby]

My intent in this post wasn't to toot my own horn or to glorify my pastor. It was just an example how not preaching tithing dogmatically can result in a positive outcome.

I do not believe that tithing is a New Testament Mandate. Nor do I believe that when it is preached that it is "GOD's tithe". Why would we owe GOD anything when He declares Himself to be a debtor to no man with our only earned wage being death?

Not preaching it dogmatically can create a "backlash" of sorts if the folks have been used to their Pentecostal beat-downs anf suddenly feel free to NOT give. Got the T shirt. What we are learning now is that we literally have to "re-disciple" people into what the will of God is for the Body of Christ concerning financial giving. Stewardship is involved. At the same time, if there are no directed funds to any earmarked needs then why raise funds? I believe the concept of giving is part of the gospel, but this is giving in the general sense of the word, ie; talents, time, finance, etc. Sometimes finance is less important than the church just being the Church. It's a process to re-learn how we "do" things in the Kingdom as we try to return to a bibilical, Christ-honoring model. As one that has given and received tithes I will be honest and say that unless I see the finances directed to the sick, lame, poor, missions (aka outreach), or visitation per Mt 25 then I can be a tightwad concerning my own giving. If the local assembly has an inflow of financed, it also needs an "outflow". (recall the servant w/one talent vs the one w/five).


I tried cutting this from my Word program on my laptop with no success. If anyone out there can help me learn how to do that I'd appreciate it!

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by Sabby

If the local assembly has an inflow of financed, it also needs an "outflow". (recall the servant w/one talent vs the one w/five).


I tried cutting this from my Word program on my laptop with no success. If anyone out there can help me learn how to do that I'd appreciate it!

Amen; and thanks to all for a much clearer understanding of tithing. Sabby, you might find "wordpad," contained in "word," to be more suited to your purposes.

[Sabby]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

Amen; and thanks to all for a much clearer understanding of tithing. Sabby, you might find "wordpad," contained in "word," to be more suited to your purposes.

Thanks, I'll try it...

[bbyrd009]

And HA! "Perhaps a remnant" indeed. Please God, don't let me be the first one taken...

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Sabby

Jason, I appreciate your passion on this subject!
Saints have been guilted into this financial trip for far too long! It boils down to true biblical stewardship and how we are to respond to Jesus' mandate to feed, clothe, support, visit those in need; our "neighbors".
Supporting a work becomes an obligation instead of an opportunity to bless.

A very good friend of mine starting an inner city work last year was posting devotionals on a ministerial FB site (Doing it on an internal FB site was probably not wise). He made the mistake of posting his similar position as yours, and was removed from his own fellowship's site! The response was, I thought, as amazing as it was rapid.

Pastors fear losing "their tithes". The problem is, for the most part, they are only doing what they have been taught. Eventually it becomes systemic.

My experience a few years ago was that people will think they no longer have to give at all, thinking that since tithing isn't "required", then neither is giving. We have to change the terminology or definition or what it means to give financially in the NT, at the same time understanding that the phrase "to tithe" may be imbedded in believer's minds so deeply that it may still be used but will need to be phrased differently without making it an obligation. I hope that makes sense.

I would be interested in any book you write on the subject, Jason.

Thanks often times passion and a desire for Biblical accuracy is misunderstood for "rebellious,bitter, and a bad spirit."

[Nitehawk013]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Thanks often times passion and a desire for Biblical accuracy is misunderstood for "rebellious,bitter, and a bad spirit."

Ain't that the truth!