Thank God for Miracles!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by pelathais

...
I just don't think that it is appropriate to conjure up a god who is wrecking automobiles (and human lives!) with the whimsy of a four year old crashing his Hotwheels around the kitchen floor. The church the family of four attended and where the funeral is to be held is not that far from my home. Should I deliver a message on your behalf telling them how ineffective their prayers are compared to ours?

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Yes, why don't you do that, Pel. Make sure you tell them about Esther's niece and how Esther had an evil foreboding about this trip her niece was taking and prayed for their safe travel. And how Esther's prayers were answered by God. Obviously the people in that church all need to repent.

From the context, you were clearly talking about the church in Parker, CO when you said that the whole church needed to repent. But now you deny this?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Originally Posted by pelathais
Yes. According to Esther's account, she is responsible for the deaths of the family of four from Parker.

Esther, did you really have to burn them alive? Wasn't that a bit over the top? Couldn't you have shown more mercy?

No wonder you fall on your face so much at CARM. Such sophistry is so trite.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

From the context, you were clearly talking about the church in Parker, CO when you said that the whole church needed to repent. But now you deny this?

I was being sarcastic! That's why I used the smiley to demonstrate me whacking you in the head for saying something totally ridiculous!

Is it okay for you to use over-the- top sarcasm but then you call me out on it? Whatevah....

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

This mea culpa may be the wisest thing you've said here. This whole issue of Theodicy does appear to be unfamiliar ground for you. And, FWIW - it really was Mizpeh's calls for the grieving people to "repent" that irked my ire. You at least appeared to be simply grateful to have your loved ones safe - a noble and understandable sentiment even if the initial posts appeared to overlook the suffering of others.

I'm glad it irked your ire! I was intentionally trying to irk your ire because you irked my ire with the ridiculous statement you made in post 52!

I was laying on the sarcasm just as heavy as you were!

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

No wonder you fall on your face so much at CARM. Such sophistry is so trite.

Really? Have you been on CARM lately? Where is the sophistry and triteness in copying something you wrote that was accusing Esther of murder? Or were you using sarcasm again? The thing that is so bothersome is that your use of sarcasm is downright mean and unkind.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Really? Have you been on CARM lately? Where is the sophistry and triteness in copying something you wrote that was accusing Esther of murder? Or were you using sarcasm again? The thing that is so bothersome is that your use of sarcasm is downright mean and unkind.

The idea that the people who were killed were somehow less deserving of the love of God is what was downright mean and unkind. Your sarcastic comment that the grieving church should "repent" was equally unkind.

If my own comments pointed that out, then great. Esther wasn't really open to a discussion of the implications of her own theology on this matter. Everyone who attempted to engage her was met with a "WHY DON"T YOU BELIEVE IN MIRACLES???" type of response.

By showing the logical conclusions of her reasoning I had hoped to introduce her to the implications of this whole idea that God is at the beckon call of OP people while the "unrepentant" Presbyterians burn alive.

I also offered several examples where OP people's prayers were glaringly NOT answered, and in fact, they appear to have been rebuked - if your world view is one where God Himself is running around pulling every lever in the cosmos.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by pelathais

The idea that the people who were killed were somehow less deserving of the love of God is what was downright mean and unkind. Your sarcastic comment that the grieving church should "repent" was equally unkind.

But, Pel, who is saying that they were less deserving of the love of God? You're the one who is implying it. I certainly wasn't. Maybe that is the inference you immediately thought of but I don't think Esther thought of that at all when she wrote the opening post.

Yes, my comment was unkind. I don't think nor do I now think that anyone in that church needs to repent for their lack of effective prayer. I almost didn't post it but I found your comment so utterly ridiculous, I wanted to make as severe a point as you did.

If my own comments pointed that out, then great. Esther wasn't really open to a discussion of the implications of her own theology on this matter. Everyone who attempted to engage her was met with a "WHY DON"T YOU BELIEVE IN MIRACLES???" type of response.

By showing the logical conclusions of her reasoning I had hoped to introduce her to the implications of this whole idea that God is at the beckon call of OP people while the "unrepentant" Presbyterians burn alive.

Pel, it was the way you and Smith went about proving your point.

I have an idea why we have so much evil in this world and why God allows it but why this presbyterian family instead of some other family? I don't know. I have no idea why Rex Johnson's wife and son were killed in another fiery car crash, either. But none of this negates the fact that Esther prayed because she felt to and her niece is still alive. She either has to say that her prayer

1) was a waste and unnecessary because God doesn't grant traveling mercies.

2) or say that her prayer was heard and answered.

3) or that her prayer was heard but God did not intervene at all in the situation. What happened was what was going to happen whether Esther prayed or didn't pray.

But Esther felt to pray for her niece and that is what convinces her that it God not only prompted her to pray but also heard her prayer and intervened. Only known unto God is the reason why Esther was nudged to pray for her niece's safety.

I also offered several examples where OP people's prayers were glaringly NOT answered, and in fact, they appear to have been rebuked - if your world view is one where God Himself is running around pulling every lever in the cosmos.

I don't believe God is pulling every lever ( in that I don't believe God caused that collision to happen nor do I believe it is God's will for that collision to have happened) but he definitely has his hands on the throttle. There is a time and a season for every purpose under heaven.

I lean to a Molinist approach to the foreknowledge of God and free moral agency of man.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

But, Pel, who is saying that they were less deserving of the love of God? You're the one who is implying it. I certainly wasn't. Maybe that is the inference you immediately thought of but I don't think Esther thought of that at all when she wrote the opening post.

Yes, my comment was unkind. I don't think nor do I now think that anyone in that church needs to repent for their lack of effective prayer. I almost didn't post it but I found your comment so utterly ridiculous, I wanted to make as severe a point as you did.

Pel, it was the way you and Smith went about proving your point.

I have an idea why we have so much evil in this world and why God allows it but why this presbyterian family instead of some other family? I don't know. I have no idea why Rex Johnson's wife and son were killed in another fiery car crash, either. But none of this negates the fact that Esther prayed because she felt to and her niece is still alive. She either has to say that her prayer

1) was a waste and unnecessary because God doesn't grant traveling mercies.

2) or say that her prayer was heard and answered.

3) or that her prayer was heard but God did not intervene at all in the situation. What happened was what was going to happen whether Esther prayed or didn't pray.

But Esther felt to pray for her niece and that is what convinces her that it God not only prompted her to pray but also heard her prayer and intervened. Only known unto God is the reason why Esther was nudged to pray for her niece's safety.

I don't believe God is pulling every lever ( in that I don't believe God caused that collision to happen nor do I believe it is God's will for that collision to have happened) but he definitely has his hands on the throttle. There is a time and a season for every purpose under heaven.

I lean to a Molinist approach to the foreknowledge of God and free moral agency of man.

As "Mr. Smith" pointed out, this is a necessary deduction from the opening post. If Esther wasn't inferring it (and I believe that she was not) then it stands that she simply had never considered the things that Mr. Smith had gently pointed out.

Instead of observing the facet that Smith revealed, she responded in anger and denial. She went on to accuse those who were trying to help her to understand the implications of her statements with lack the level of "faith" that she claims to possess.

The "sarcasm" directed at Esther only appeared when her BOLDED and ENLARGED responses multiplied.

As simple response to Smith's gentle prodding was all that was required. Instead we all got a Kenneth Hagin/Benny Hinn style complaint that everyone who disagrees with Esther "lacks faith."

That, my friend, is and has always been the quickest path to a polemic smackdown ever since the Internet was invented.

[Sarah]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Cindy, stuff like this needs to be rebuked immediately. This represents a very horrible outlook. Mizpeh and Esther are both arguing that God burned an innocent family of four ALIVE just to vindicate the "Oneness doctrine."

Meanwhile they ignore the implications of Nathaniel Urshan's own "failure" in this area at the St. Louis General Conference many years back. After that Conference, why didn't the whole UPC "repent" as Mizpeh has demanded?

This represents such a medieval and corrupt view of God and a senselessly absurd view of Oneness that Oneness people everywhere MUST stand up against it.

Pel....you ought to be ashamed of yourself for writing that first paragraph. That's a stretch and you know it is!

[Falla39]

Originally Posted by Sarah

Pel....you ought to be ashamed of yourself for writing that first paragraph. That's a stretch and you know it is!

I tend to agree, Sarah!