Emergent Church

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

Sounds like he's doing just what he's accused others of doing. Not changing his behavior.

Yes, and I'm sure that if we were totally honest, we could also admit we are all hypocrites at times and to some degree. But, we all, at times, make valid points.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

We've made progress in our exchange when you can say, "I disagree to a point." LOL!

I think you may, in some cases (IHOP? 'cause I'm not sure. Haven't studied them out), have a valid point with your terms cited, i.e., "mega churches", "emergents", easy believism", and "watered-down Christianity", but, I think, in many cases by personal observation, they appear to intersect and are not always majorly exclusive.

I think the "look" and "style" of the "emergents" has probably taken more of a hold than their actual teachings. Thus, we all may tend to lump a whole lot of folks together simply because of the "look."

And, the majority of people in the world at least appear to want the "no rules" and "no change in my lifestyle" kind of "Christianity." Even Jesus remarked on that point with His "loaves and fishes" comment.

Still, from my observation, those that have actually bought into the "Emergent" movement do tend to emphasize a sort of "low key" radicalism. Maybe it just seems "low key" to me because it all started in "laid back" California. Dunno. But they do emphasize commitment and change.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by pelathais

I think the "look" and "style" of the "emergents" has probably taken more of a hold than their actual teachings. Thus, we all may tend to lump a whole lot of folks together simply because of the "look."

Might be. Probably so.

And, the majority of people in the world at least appear to want the "no rules" and "no change in my lifestyle" kind of "Christianity." Even Jesus remarked on that point with His "loaves and fishes" comment.

Yes, not present to stand up for Him during His suffering, just during the free handouts - fishes and loaves. I have visited various churches in the areas I have lived - AOG, Charismatic, etc. and that was what I observed. Not the dress, but what they talked about and what they participated in away from the church. Just wanting a form of religion, but denying the power thereof..... You know how it ends. We use that against the UPC and their traditional rules, but it can be applied elsewhere. Just sayin'.. LOL!

Still, from my observation, those that have actually bought into the "Emergent" movement do tend to emphasize a sort of "low key" radicalism. Maybe it just seems "low key" to me because it all started in "laid back" California. Dunno. But they do emphasize commitment and change.

Not denying they are around. It would only stand to reason that some have good intentions and want to be sincere. Just haven't seen that around anywhere I have lived, as of yet.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

I agree that there are people who simply want a little religion, and not really have a changed life. But I don't agree that 'rules' are the answer, as he seems to imply. You can have all the rules you want and not have a changed heart.

Imo, the real key is relationship (not rules). Because if you have real relationship, you will begin to change. Your life will be transformed. With rules, it's way too easy to be complacent. 'I've checked off the list, I'm holy now. Don't have to think about it anymore'. Real relationship with Jesus will challenge you on every level of your life.

A real relationship will check your spirit when the clerk at the grocery store gives you too much change back. I've walked all the way back into the store when I discovered that a candy bar I had in the grocery cart wasn't scanned. There was no rule that told me I had to do that, but the prick in my heart did. I had a clerk at the bank give me several hundred dollars in cash that didn't belong to me, and then argue with me when I told her it wasn't mine! It would have been very easy to say 'thank you' and rejoice about how the Lord had blessed me! (not) But a relationship with Jesus will guide you in these situations.

We've all had times when we've had to forgive, when we've had to bite our tongue, when we've had to resist evil thoughts, love our neighbor when it was hard to do so. And it's real relationship that helps us to do that. Not so much 'rules'.

good post.
thank you for explaining the difference between relationship and rules so well.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*

I agree that there are people who simply want a little religion, and not really have a changed life. But I don't agree that 'rules' are the answer, as he seems to imply. You can have all the rules you want and not have a changed heart.

Imo, the real key is relationship (not rules). Because if you have real relationship, you will begin to change. Your life will be transformed. With rules, it's way too easy to be complacent. 'I've checked off the list, I'm holy now. Don't have to think about it anymore'. Real relationship with Jesus will challenge you on every level of your life.

I agree with you to a degree. But, I find that the NT is full of rules or a better word, perhaps, "admonitions" (if the word "rule" offends some. Seems like it does, and I'm not referring to you here.) that we know we must follow and adhere to.

Our relationship with God does affect our observance of these things. We go to the Word to find answers for a myriad of situations or issues. So, I think that the moral and civil admonitions/rules laid out have much to do with our relationship with the Lord.

I think that they work together as He said He would write those laws upon our hearts. To say that only having a relationship exclusive of rules would not be an accurate depiction of our responsibility as Christians. We actually have both or what need would we have for His Word? Why would the Word admonish us to go on to perfection? It tells me that I don't know enough to, solely, have a relationship with Him alone. I need Him and I need His Word as a guide. It really is a love story and it is also a rule book. I can't effectively teach without it. I cannot guide someone without it. I cannot simply say, "All you need is a relationship."

That is like saying, IMO, "holiness" is exclusively something in our hearts. It does begin there, but our outward appearance and actions will also be a reflection of that holiness. We have a responsibility to follow a rule on that - "women should wear "modest" apparel". Not pushing a "clothesline" issue here. Just pointing out that there is a rule laid out that we must know about in order to follow it in our relationship with Him.

I think to push "relationship" above and beyond "admonition" would not be a balanced view. I must have the "admonition", which is knowledge, in order to have a correct and endearing "relationship".

I think that is probably what you are saying or what you believe, but I wanted to expound on that.

A real relationship will check your spirit when the clerk at the grocery store gives you too much change back. I've walked all the way back into the store when I discovered that a candy bar I had in the grocery cart wasn't scanned. There was no rule that told me I had to do that, but the prick in my heart did. I had a clerk at the bank give me several hundred dollars in cash that didn't belong to me, and then argue with me when I told her it wasn't mine! It would have been very easy to say 'thank you' and rejoice about how the Lord had blessed me! (not) But a relationship with Jesus will guide you in these situations.

Well, actually, there is a law that does tell us to return the candy. It's the law of stealing which holds a misdemeanor charge if violated. So, even in good conscience, we are responding to law when we return the candy bar or the money. How was the clerk not able to keep tract of the money she was handling? That's a bit odd. I think she needs to find another job. LOL!

We've all had times when we've had to forgive, when we've had to bite our tongue, when we've had to resist evil thoughts, love our neighbor when it was hard to do so. And it's real relationship that helps us to do that. Not so much 'rules'.

Sure, because we love Him, knows He loves us and because His Word tells us this is what we are supposed to do. I think it is because of both - the instructions we have been given in the Bible, specifically the NT, as it's written to the NT Spirit-filled Church, and our willingness to have a relationship with Him because of it.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Might be. Probably so.


Yes, not present to stand up for Him during His suffering, just during the free handouts - fishes and loaves. I have visited various churches in the areas I have lived - AOG, Charismatic, etc. and that was what I observed. Not the dress, but what they talked about and what they participated in away from the church. Just wanting a form of religion, but denying the power thereof..... You know how it ends. We use that against the UPC and their traditional rules, but it can be applied elsewhere. Just sayin'.. LOL!


Not denying they are around. It would only stand to reason that some have good intentions and want to be sincere. Just haven't seen that around anywhere I have lived, as of yet.

We often see what we want to see in others. And, we often project our own feelings and bias upon those we don't know very well.

You for example, are probably reading this right now with your uncut hair either down or tied up in a knot since it is early morn. Just to be "proper" you are wearing those "granny" shin-high stockings that you would never wear around "church folks."

You assume (rightly) that I haven't shaved in a while and that my "hippy hair" is unkempt given the early morning hour that it is. You probably think I only preach with my shirt untucked because I want to "look cool" and "trendy emergent" but ignore the comfort someone of my girth finds from that.

You are sipping chocolate flavored coffee. You used to joke that this was your "backsliding" but now you'll liable to shoot anyone who interferes before you've had your "fix."

I am not likely to be argued out of any of these presuppositions.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by pelathais

We often see what we want to see in others. And, we often project our own feelings and bias upon those we don't know very well.

This is so, so true.

[Sister Alvear]

I too agree...we usually see what we want to see especially in our friends....

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by pelathais

We often see what we want to see in others. And, we often project our own feelings and bias upon those we don't know very well.

You for example, are probably reading this right now with your uncut hair either down or tied up in a knot since it is early morn. Just to be "proper" you are wearing those "granny" shin-high stockings that you would never wear around "church folks."

You assume (rightly) that I haven't shaved in a while and that my "hippy hair" is unkempt given the early morning hour that it is. You probably think I only preach with my shirt untucked because I want to "look cool" and "trendy emergent" but ignore the comfort someone of my girth finds from that.

You are sipping chocolate flavored coffee. You used to joke that this was your "backsliding" but now you'll liable to shoot anyone who interferes before you've had your "fix."

I am not likely to be argued out of any of these presuppositions.

Originally Posted by pelathais

We often see what we want to see in others. And, we often project our own feelings and bias upon those we don't know very well.

I agree, Pel. You just did that to me in this post of yours.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I agree, Pel. You just did that to me in this post of yours.

I think that was his point. LOL.