Do you think Two Church services a month is enough?

Originally Posted by Michlow

Ok, for the 80 millioneth time, I don't think that reducing my attendance to twice a month is considered forsaking.

Other than that, I only partially disagree with the rest of what you said. Christianity IS in some part a democracy, at least it is between people. God is the ultimate authority, but try and find 2 people who can agree on what God is saying. I AM trying my best to do what God is telling me to do. But it is a work in progress, and I can only take one step at a time.

Democracy is a worldly system: it has no place in the Church (by which I obviously mean the body of Christ). Also, it doesn't matter whether there are others who agree, it only matters what God actually says.

I think the concern just about everyone here has is with the possibility that you are spending so much of your time not in fellowship with other believers, not in a place where you are being equipped to do the work of serving God, not in a place where you can grow and mature in Christ. There is never any good that will come of that. It would be better for you to spend your time in a local church, allow yourself to be fed the word of God and, while you're doing that, learn to hear God's voice and listen for Him to tell you where you need to be and what your place in the body of Christ is.

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Chan

Democracy is a worldly system: it has no place in the Church (by which I obviously mean the body of Christ). Also, it doesn't matter whether there are others who agree, it only matters what God actually says.

I think the concern just about everyone here has is with the possibility that you are spending so much of your time not in fellowship with other believers, not in a place where you are being equipped to do the work of serving God, not in a place where you can grow and mature in Christ. There is never any good that will come of that. It would be better for you to spend your time in a local church, allow yourself to be fed the word of God and, while you're doing that, learn to hear God's voice and listen for Him to tell you where you need to be and what your place in the body of Christ is.

And now we come to the crux of the matter. Who says that God is IN the local church, that I will actually be fed if I attend. And for that matter, why do you people insist that you can't hear God outside of a church building? You do understand that the building itself is not sacred, don't you?

I agree however, that fellowship is important, however, the very concept is problematic. Either I pretend to be just like them and make myself to be a hypocrite, or I be myself and am accused of being divisive or in rebellion to the Pastor.

Originally Posted by Michlow

And now we come to the crux of the matter. Who says that God is IN the local church, that I will actually be fed if I attend.

God is IN every believer and, consequently, wherever believers gather as the local Church, He is there.

And for that matter, why do you people insist that you can't hear God outside of a church building? You do understand that the building itself is not sacred, don't you?

What part of my earlier parenthetical statement did you not understand? "(whether that local assembly meets in its own building, in a rented storefront, in someone's house, in a cave, or whatever)"

I agree however, that fellowship is important, however, the very concept is problematic. Either I pretend to be just like them and make myself to be a hypocrite, or I be myself and am accused of being divisive or in rebellion to the Pastor.

There is nothing problematic about fellowship and you are not making yourself a hypocrite by going to a local assembly to be fed the word of God. There is no need to pretend to be something you're not and what's important is what you are, i.e. a child of God and part of the body and bride of Christ. Focus on being what the Bible says you are.

[Malvaro]

Originally Posted by Michlow

LOL, he has nothing to do with my church attendance or lack thereof. My comment about UC's was my not so subtle way of telling Whole-hearted to bug off.

Secondly, the church I DO go to is technically in another city as well, there is a ALJC in the city I live in, but though I have visited, I have never attended.

Thirdly, I have a valid reason for not wanting to go to church. And it is just that, I don't want to. I have nothing to prove to you, or anyone else. Not even the Pastor of the church I "visit" twice a month. You know him. He is a great guy, and the best of any of the Pastor's I have had (and there were some...not so good....). And his is a good church, the best of any that I have ever attended. But we don't see eye to eye on a vast array of issues, some that are important and some that are not. We get along well, and I have absolutely no issues with Him or that particular congregation at all. It really is a great church.

Alot of my issues are with the modern church model, and what I feel is a wrong focus of said modern church. I also disagree with a lot that is taught, i.e. tithing as a NT requirement, the separation between clergy and laity, the need for a church building and the incessent programs, fund-raisers etc., being "preached at" rather than searching the scriptures together, the drive towards entertainment and emotionalism, the view that the Pastor is THE absolute and supreme spiritual authority, and the prevelant view that the church organization is equal to God.

That's alot to try and reconcile AND still fit into an Apostolic church. One could say almost impossible.

when you find the "perfect" church, let me know.... in the mean-time, I'll settle going to my "imperfect" church with it's "imperfect" people....

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Chan

God is IN every believer and, consequently, wherever believers gather as the local Church, He is there. What part of my earlier parenthetical statement did you not understand? "(whether that local assembly meets in its own building, in a rented storefront, in someone's house, in a cave, or whatever)"

There is nothing problematic about fellowship and you are not making yourself a hypocrite by going to a local assembly to be fed the word of God. There is no need to pretend to be something you're not and what's important is what you are, i.e. a child of God and part of the body and bride of Christ. Focus on being what the Bible says you are.

I don't know how to say this without coming across as either grossly arrogant or extremely insulting to my Pastor.

A few months back, It finally became clear that there are no two people on the face of the earth that believe exactly the same things about God, the Bible, etc. Which means, that no one is 100% right. Which means, that everyone is partially wrong.

Therefore, everything that someone tells me is potentially wrong. Including, and even most especially those in ministry. What they are preaching, and what they believe is a mix between divine revelation, tradition, and training.

It is almost impossible to read and interpret the Bible in any way other than the way your experiences, your culture, your training has taught you.

The bottom line, is that I no longer have any faith in any man's interpretation of the Bible. They all think they are right, and they aren't. To be honest, I have a hard time listening to preaching right now, because all I know that I am simply listening to a man's opinion.

I do still believe that the Bible is the Word of God, but to be honest, I am disillusioned enough that I don't claim to know much more than that. I have heard it twisted and turned and used to destroy people, and prove all manners of wickedness, and I guess I just got fed up.

To some of you, even this confession is most likely enough to make you believe that I therefore have nothing of interest to say, or that I am so far gone as to be completely useless, to be honest, that is what I expect from you, so no biggie.

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Malvaro

when you find the "perfect" church, let me know.... in the mean-time, I'll settle going to my "imperfect" church with it's "imperfect" people....

I do have the perfect church, I'm the only member

[Malvaro]

Originally Posted by Chan

...There's no doubt that the "modern church model" is primarily man-made tradition and that there is a lot of wrong focus in the modern Church. Many of your specific complaints are valid complaints. There's only one problem: Christianity is not a democracy; you have no rights, no sovereignty, no say whatsoever; you are required to obey GOD and you do not have the right to withhold yourself from the rest of the body of Christ when His word has specifically said not to forsake the assembling of yourselves together. You are required to find out from God where in the body of Christ HE would have you and what your specific place is in a local assembly of believers (whether that local assembly meets in its own building, in a rented storefront, in someone's house, in a cave, or whatever). Go to God and have Him tell you where you are to go.

Chan, great post!!! I agree with you 100%....

[Malvaro]

Originally Posted by Michlow

I don't know how to say this without coming across as either grossly arrogant or extremely insulting to my Pastor.

A few months back, It finally became clear that there are no two people on the face of the earth that believe exactly the same things about God, the Bible, etc. Which means, that no one is 100% right. Which means, that everyone is partially wrong.

Therefore, everything that someone tells me is potentially wrong. Including, and even most especially those in ministry. What they are preaching, and what they believe is a mix between divine revelation, tradition, and training.

It is almost impossible to read and interpret the Bible in any way other than the way your experiences, your culture, your training has taught you.

The bottom line, is that I no longer have any faith in any man's interpretation of the Bible. They all think they are right, and they aren't. To be honest, I have a hard time listening to preaching right now, because all I know that I am simply listening to a man's opinion.

I do still believe that the Bible is the Word of God, but to be honest, I am disillusioned enough that I don't claim to know much more than that. I have heard it twisted and turned and used to destroy people, and prove all manners of wickedness, and I guess I just got fed up.

To some of you, even this confession is most likely enough to make you believe that I therefore have nothing of interest to say, or that I am so far gone as to be completely useless, to be honest, that is what I expect from you, so no biggie.

then whom can you trust to share with you the doctrinal truths of the salvation message??? whom can you trust to share with you the paths of righteousness??? whom can you trust to help you become a more mature Christian??? apparently no-one....

it must be a depressing, and scary, place to find oneself....

reminds me a bit of Proverbs 21:2....

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Malvaro

then whom can you trust to share with you the doctrinal truths of the salvation message??? whom can you trust to share with you the paths of righteousness??? whom can you trust to help you become a more mature Christian??? apparently no-one....

it must be a depressing, and scary, place to find oneself....

Well I wouldn't exactly call it a bowl of cherries

I have been on the verge of this place for years, and rather than going through it and coming out the other side, I keep trying to stuff myself back into the little box that I came out of, because its comfortable and familiar. Well, I can't do that anymore, and so I just have to deal with it. Scary and depressing or not.

Besides, I am not completely alone. I have Jesus

And I believe that eventually in His timing, he will bring into my life, others whom I can trust.

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Malvaro

reminds me a bit of Proverbs 21:2....

Proverbs 21:2

2 All a man's ways seem right to him,
but the LORD weighs the heart.

Mal ~

I know you have been raised in church, so maybe this is hard for you to understand. Have you ever been lied to? Misled? Deceived? Taken Advantage of? By someone you trusted? By someone that you believed in? Not how about every person you have ever trusted? Now, some were well-intentioned, and some were just malicious, but they were wrong.

I am not saying that I know what's right, or that I have all the answers. If it makes you feel better, I don't trust myself any more than I trust anyone else. That's the whole point. I used to know everything, and now I know nothing. There are no answers, only questions. The longer I know God, and search His word, the more I realize that.