The Apostolic Welfare Culture

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

Rhoni, you have a unique ability to bash pastors at every opportunity. Do you realize this? This is what I was referring to earlier. Again, this thread is not about preachers. It is about lazy Apostolics.

Care to comment on that?

You see...you just judged my post to be about me bashing preachers...I did not bash preachers at all...I am talking about Saints respecting Pastors and Pastors respecting the saints.

You are saying that those who prefer mega churches are somehow "LAZY APOSTOLICS". I am not saying there are not 'lazy Apostolics, [Pastors as well as saints] but I am saying that many times what you consider being lazy is not laziness at all, but rather a feeling that one would rather/prefer to work in the area of one's calling or expertise than in all areas of church where there is a hole/need for a worker.

How does this tie into what I stated and you quoted? Well, I think that if Ministry was more sensitve to the callings, the areas of passion for their saints and try to place them or allow them to work in these areas then God would provide workers in the missing areas. It is a matter of trust, respect,a nd affirmation on both sides.

There have been examples by others, as well as by myself or those who take advantage of their positions, but there are just as many - if not more positive examples of Good Leadership and Involved saints. I still think the problem is one of "submission". The Bible tells us to submit to one another...this includes respecting one another, loving one another, thinking the best in one another, and affirming one another.

Many times what one preceives as "Laziness" might be other things, i.e., hurt, burn-out, lack of funding, lack of appreciation, lack of knowing the areas the person has a pasion for, lack of communication.

Blessings, Rhoni

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by Ron

True Ministry is a "Team Effort!"

ABSOLUTELY! There are many arms of the ministry and they shoudl work together and not against each other!

Blessings, Rhoni

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by Coonskinner

Rhoni,

Just out of curiousity, how in the cat hair did you assume from anything I wrote that I:

"Continually beat up saints..."

"Discipline them till they can't stand..."

Don't affirm them

''Don't appreciate them...

Expect them to "work for me..."

You are not just reading between the lines, you are reading way beyond the lines.

CS,

You are taking it personally...I was not assuming anything about you...I was sticking to what I considered the theme of the thread...why APOSTOLICS are sometimes considered 'lazy'. It isn't meant in any way to reflect on you sir. I know nothing of your leadership abilities. But I have heard you preach and you did a fine job!

I think that maybe some misunderstandings on both our parts, about each other is that we personalize the posts to apply to ourselves when it is more a macro approach to the topic. I apologize if you thought I was targeting you...this is not so.

Respectfully, Rhoni

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Chan

Go back and read my post and see how I defined the Church. It isn't about a building or ministries or activities, it's about being body parts in Christ's body. As for the family, Jesus said that those who love their families more than they love Him are not worthy of Him and He said that if those who put their hand to the plow look back (toward the house), they are not worthy of Him.

Interestingly, one of the qualifications of a deacon (a SERVANT of the Church - deacon is NOT a leadership position and those churches that have so-called "deacon boards" exercising authority in the Church are not of God because that is not God's created order for the Church), one of the qualifications of a deacon (and a bishop or overseeing elder, aka pastor) is that he rules his household well.

I believe Jesus is saying that if you love your family more - preoccupy your time with the family more - not looking to the Gospel - is the error.

As you said the qualifications of a deacon are to rule his household well. That means he isn't neglecting them in his service.

Some people take the admonition of Jesus in the way of "neglect" and that's what I was getting at. You can't put him first and neglect the other part.

[Rhoni]

Originally Posted by Pragmatist

I choose to go to a small church rather than the mega church, but not for the reasons you state (although, I do like the fact that the pastor at the small church knows my name )

There is no enmeshment into our family system. We are educated and independent.

I'm not involved in leadership anyway, due to my not believing the same way about standards. (My decision)

I don't need someone to tell me what to do and my pastor preaches that we need to learn to hear from God for ourselves.

I've gone to the mega church and didn't care for it.

But the main reason, we love our church is not the size, it's the wisdom and dedication of our pastor.

Dear Pragmatist,

If you believe your Pastor to have so much wisdom and dedication - why would you not submit to his dress standard policy to be used int he church? Help me to understand this?

I loved my Pastor and his wife in Florida and did everything I could do to please them...and it included abiding by the platform standard, and beyond because I TRUSTED their integrity, wisdom, and dedication to the cause there in that community...I submitted willingly. So...I don't understand your view or post.

Blessings, Rhoni

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I believe Jesus is saying that if you love your family more - preoccupy your time with the family more - not looking to the Gospel - is the error.

And putting your family before what God has called you to do.

As you said the qualifications of a deacon are to rule his household well. That means he isn't neglecting them in his service.

But neither is he putting his family above his serving God and fulfilling the place God has put him in Christ's body.

Some people take the admonition of Jesus in the way of "neglect" and that's what I was getting at. You can't put him first and neglect the other part.

This is a doctrine of devils and is as vile as the ungodly notion of being "so heavenly minded that one is of no earthly good"! If you are putting Jesus first and, thus, are doing what He commands, it is impossible for you to neglect those things that are not to be neglected.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Chan

And putting your family before what God has called you to do.

I believe if he calls you. He has called the whole unit for His purpose.

But neither is he putting his family above his serving God and fulfilling the place God has put him in Christ's body.

Right. Balance.

This is a doctrine of devils and is as vile as the ungodly notion of being "so heavenly minded that one is of no earthly good"! If you are putting Jesus first and, thus, are doing what He commands, it is impossible for you to neglect those things that are not to be neglected.

Right, again, although some take it too far - that was my point. I think a better way to explain that is someone reading - "If your eye offend you, pluck it out." An illustration being made without actually asking you do to that.

Some take the "If you love your family more" and spend all kinds of time not balancing the other scriptures.

That's what I am trying to say.

[SDG]

Many times what one preceives as "Laziness" might be other things, i.e., hurt, burn-out, lack of funding, lack of appreciation, lack of knowing the areas the person has a pasion for, lack of communication.

Absolutely ... "laziness" is an easy label .... sometimes we need to delve deeper

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Absolutely ... "laziness" is an easy label .... sometimes we need to delve deeper

What?

Worldliness?
Covetousness?
Selfishness?

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I believe if he calls you. He has called the whole unit for His purpose.

But this does not mean God calls the man's family to the man's ministry.

Right. Balance.

As long as Christ and your place in His body come first.

Right, again, although some take it too far - that was my point. I think a better way to explain that is someone reading - "If your eye offend you, pluck it out." An illustration being made without actually asking you do to that.

Not that an eye is physically capable of causing you to sin (which is what made the statement metaphoric of anything in your life that causes you to sin). Anything that keeps us from serving God with our whole being, and keeps us from putting Him above all else, needs to be plucked out, amputated, etc.

Some take the "If you love your family more" and spend all kinds of time not balancing the other scriptures.

Like the one where Paul said that those who marry would be more concerned with how to please their spouse than with how to please God?