Would This Man be Welcome to Preach at Conference?

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by 1399

If baptism was salvific, then Cornelius and his household could not have received the gift of the Holy Ghost without being baptized.

For most traditional Apostolics, that is the 3rd step in the salvation process, when every thing fits perfectly into the nice Pentecostal religious box.

But God can not be fit in a box. He saves whom He wants to save which is why He can save "All those who call upon Him".

Our salvation is not purchased with our decision to get baptized.

Our salvation is purchased with His Blood. It is His "kindness that draws us to repentance" in the first place.

Jesus Christ is the beginning the middle the end our salvation. We stand complete in Him. We stand in Him, by faith. We demonstrate that faith by our obedience-- the desire to be obedient that would not even be there unless God put it in our hearts.

This is the "spirit" of the New Testament scriptures concerning salvation.
This is the WORD of the Lord.

If baptism is salvific, is the Lord's Supper salvific? How about foot washing?

What about Repentance. Is repentance salvific??

[the raven]

Originally Posted by 1399

If baptism was salvific, then Cornelius and his household could not have received the gift of the Holy Ghost without being baptized.

For most traditional Apostolics, that is the 3rd step in the salvation process, when every thing fits perfectly into the nice Pentecostal religious box.

But God can not be fit in a box. He saves whom He wants to save which is why He can save "All those who call upon Him".

Our salvation is not purchased with our decision to get baptized.

Our salvation is purchased with His Blood. It is His "kindness that draws us to repentance" in the first place.

Jesus Christ is the beginning the middle the end our salvation. We stand complete in Him. We stand in Him, by faith. We demonstrate that faith by our obedience.

This is the "spirit" of the New Testament scriptures concerning salvation.
This is the WORD of the Lord.

If baptism is salvific, is the Lord's Supper salvific? How about foot washing?

Sir,

It is obvious that you do not consider these things salvific. You have the constitutional right to be wrong. What you cannot change is the scriptural principles and texts which command, exhort and encourage the activities which you regard as arbitrary. It is also apparent that you are well versed in the varying arguments pro and con thus you are not seeking answers but rather to prove your point, etc. The scripture talks of those who wrest the scripture to their own destruction and that we are not to be involved in vain debate.

In obediance to scripture which you may find arbitrary and make the accusation of cowardice I will withdraw from further conversation on this subject with you. Keep in mind that eternity rests on our obediance to the written word not necessarily our interpretation or even at times understanding of the written word.

[Jermyn Davidson]

What about those folks who don't really believe, but they get baptized any way?

Nothing happens and their lives aren't changed.

But there are folks whose lives do change upon true, God-inspired repentance and those folks are not baptized right a way.

Were all 3,000 on the day of Pentecost who were added to the Church baptized immediately? I'd say, probably not, just out of feasibility.

Were those that were added not saved?
If not, why were they mentioned?

[Rico]

Originally Posted by CC1

Berk posted the opposite of what you have said and a UPC missionary told me face to face that.

Plus any simple google search about Latin American culture substantiates the role facial hair plays in that culture.

CC1, read my post very slowly because you aren't getting what I am saying. Clean shaven men are not considered effeminate in the Latino culture. Having a mustache is a sign of masculinity, but not having one is NOT a sign of being effeminate. What Berk posted is NOT the opposite of what I am saying. What Berk posted is simply agreeing with the second part of what I said.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by the raven

Sir,

It is obvious that you do not consider these things salvific. You have the constitutional right to be wrong. What you cannot change is the scriptural principles and texts which command, exhort and encourage the activities which you regard as arbitrary. It is also apparent that you are well versed in the varying arguments pro and con thus you are not seeking answers but rather to prove your point, etc. The scripture talks of those who wrest the scripture to their own destruction and that we are not to be involved in vain debate.

In obediance to scripture which you may find arbitrary and make the accusation of cowardice I will withdraw from further conversation on this subject with you. Keep in mind that eternity rests on our obediance to the written word not necessarily our interpretation or even at times understanding of the written word.

Didn't think I called you a coward or accused you of cowardice.

If I did, please forgive me.

I will re check my posts for that.

I'm a work in progress, just trying to sure up what I believe.

"Iron sharpens iron."

Have a good night, Sir.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by the raven

Sir,

It is obvious that you do not consider these things salvific. You have the constitutional right to be wrong. What you cannot change is the scriptural principles and texts which command, exhort and encourage the activities which you regard as arbitrary. It is also apparent that you are well versed in the varying arguments pro and con thus you are not seeking answers but rather to prove your point, etc. The scripture talks of those who wrest the scripture to their own destruction and that we are not to be involved in vain debate.

In obediance to scripture which you may find arbitrary and make the accusation of cowardice I will withdraw from further conversation on this subject with you. Keep in mind that eternity rests on our obediance to the written word not necessarily our interpretation or even at times understanding of the written word.

Jesus commanded it. The apostles practiced it and wrote about it. But it isn't salvific. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. NOT!!!!

[James Griffin]

Originally Posted by Rico

Holy Magic Beards?

BUMP FROM ANOTHER THREAD FOR THE RAVEN..

Holy Hair for Men

Early Apostolic attitudes:

* St Clement of Alexandria
o "The hair of the chin showed him to be a man." St Clement of Alexandria (c.195, E), 2.271

o "How womanly it is for one who is a man to comb himself and shave himself with a razor, for the sake of fine effect, and to arrange his hair at the mirror, shave his cheeks, pluck hairs out of them, and smooth them!…For God wished women to be smooth and to rejoice in their locks alone growing spontaneously, as a horse in his mane. But He adorned man like the lions, with a beard, and endowed him as an attribute of manhood, with a hairy chest--a sign of strength and rule." St. Clement of Alexandria, 2.275

o "This, then, is the mark of the man, the beard. By this, he is seen to be a man. It is older than Eve. It is the token of the superior nature….It is therefore unholy to desecrate the symbol of manhood, hairiness.” St. Clement of Alexandria, 2.276

o "It is not lawful to pluck out the beard, man’s natural and noble adornment." St. Clement of Alexandria, 2.277

* St Cyprian

o "In their manners, there was no discipline. In men, their beards were defaced." St Cyprian (c. 250, W), 5.438

o "The beard must not be plucked. 'You will not deface the figure of your beard'." (Leviticus 19:27) St. Cyprian, 5.553

* Lactantius

o "The nature of the beard contributes in an incredible degree to distinguish the maturity of bodies, or to distinguish the sex, or to contribute to the beauty of manliness and strength." Lactantius (c. 304-314, W), 7.288

* Apostolic Constitutions

o "Men may not destroy the hair of their beards and unnaturally change the form of a man. For the Law says, “You will not deface your beards.” For God the Creator has made this decent for women, but has determined that it is unsuitable for men." Apostolic Constitutions (compiled c.390, E) 7.392.



Furthermore, in later centuries the pope ordered priests to start being clean shaven around the same time as he mandated celibacy, both were attempts to emasculate the priesthood. The first thing the protestant minsters did to show they were neither celibate nor catholic was grow a beard. Likewise I choose not to be mistaken for a papist !!!



So after much soul searching even though my clean shaven effeminate looking brethren choose to take the pulpit in such an unApostolic condition (although it was the only practice of the first century church) I have decided to not oppose them in the pulpit as long as they don't shave that morning and have at least started their beard.

__________________

[the raven]

Originally Posted by James Griffin

BUMP FROM ANOTHER THREAD FOR THE RAVEN..

Holy Hair for Men

Early Apostolic attitudes:

* St Clement of Alexandria
o "The hair of the chin showed him to be a man." St Clement of Alexandria (c.195, E), 2.271

o "How womanly it is for one who is a man to comb himself and shave himself with a razor, for the sake of fine effect, and to arrange his hair at the mirror, shave his cheeks, pluck hairs out of them, and smooth them!…For God wished women to be smooth and to rejoice in their locks alone growing spontaneously, as a horse in his mane. But He adorned man like the lions, with a beard, and endowed him as an attribute of manhood, with a hairy chest--a sign of strength and rule." St. Clement of Alexandria, 2.275

o "This, then, is the mark of the man, the beard. By this, he is seen to be a man. It is older than Eve. It is the token of the superior nature….It is therefore unholy to desecrate the symbol of manhood, hairiness.” St. Clement of Alexandria, 2.276

o "It is not lawful to pluck out the beard, man’s natural and noble adornment." St. Clement of Alexandria, 2.277

* St Cyprian

o "In their manners, there was no discipline. In men, their beards were defaced." St Cyprian (c. 250, W), 5.438

o "The beard must not be plucked. 'You will not deface the figure of your beard'." (Leviticus 19:27) St. Cyprian, 5.553

* Lactantius

o "The nature of the beard contributes in an incredible degree to distinguish the maturity of bodies, or to distinguish the sex, or to contribute to the beauty of manliness and strength." Lactantius (c. 304-314, W), 7.288

* Apostolic Constitutions

o "Men may not destroy the hair of their beards and unnaturally change the form of a man. For the Law says, “You will not deface your beards.” For God the Creator has made this decent for women, but has determined that it is unsuitable for men." Apostolic Constitutions (compiled c.390, E) 7.392.



Furthermore, in later centuries the pope ordered priests to start being clean shaven around the same time as he mandated celibacy, both were attempts to emasculate the priesthood. The first thing the protestant minsters did to show they were neither celibate nor catholic was grow a beard. Likewise I choose not to be mistaken for a papist !!!



So after much soul searching even though my clean shaven effeminate looking brethren choose to take the pulpit in such an unApostolic condition (although it was the only practice of the first century church) I have decided to not oppose them in the pulpit as long as they don't shave that morning and have at least started their beard.

__________________

Thank you kindly sir! I note that these are all what are termed early church fathers (so called). Have you ever noticed that the real church fathers Apostolic Age did not address these things per se. That in my opinion is not to say that it wasn't addressed but rather these issues did not hold a place of primacy as it does today.

Again, whatever views others may hold, I am fine as I am not responsible for them. I completely agree with your assesment that attitude and receptivity to direction/instruction is the crux of the matter.

[commonsense]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

Yes, and what would happen if he didn't shave? lol

A tribunal would convene.

The fact is, facial hair wasn't a problem until the late sixties, early seventies.

So much for THAT "precious truth."

Verrry true. My father was baptized and received the HG approx Jan 1,1931. He was 16. Based on pictures and conversations, he had a mustache most of his adult life. He held positions in the church and was a faithful active member.
In early 1970's there was a pastor change AND he brought many "changes". The board members were asked to get rid of their TV's and my dad had to shave off his mustache.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

What about Repentance. Is repentance salvific??

Yes, that much, my friend, is clear and hopefully, agreeable.