Water/Spirit

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

I have said all that I have to say about it. I am not being rude, I just have exhausted all the explanations I have. I f you read my response you will know how I interpret these verses. And there is already a very good explanation for baggage. If you have a question about something I said that I haven’t already tried to explain fire away.

No, that is fine and I am not going to read through an entire thread. I think natural birth is the most unlikely explanation. Thanks anyways

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by Ferd

I had a preacher who was once my pastor and most here would know his name if I called it, tell me in front of my family that my wife and I are doing just right and that we shouldnt change a thing.

He said it with tears in his eyes and a sense of regret. that man pastors a large non-denominational church that does baptize in Jesus Name but holds very little of the doctrines they once did.

It broke my heart.

I can verify that this is not the norm. The pastor of the church I went to for over a year has NO regrets.

[bkstokes]

Originally Posted by StMark

Baron,


Ferd and I both know people that left the UPC years ago. their churches nor their families have absolutley NO semblence of Pentecost left and I'm not talking about buns a skirts.I have NEVER cut anyone off who left UPC or standards.I have people/friends who can vouch for that, but I know those who left that have told me that they did have some regrets in that their children had no roots and no connections to the Pentecostal experience. In fact, they had little or no desire for it either.

most churches that leave Pentecost end up being equal to a glorified baptist church given time.

All of these should be a concern call it a slippery slop if you want

I have found that this line of thinking is why most people keep standards (a fear of losing out with God). Remember whatsoever is not of faith is ... People are going to do what they are going to do. Outward standards help with unity in a denomination, but that is about it.

[Theophil]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

I'm glad I haven't seen it!

AMEN!

[OneAccord]

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Notice two words here; AGAIN and SEE. SEE means to understand, comprehend. Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot understand, comprehend the kingdom of God.

Compare John 3:3 with verse 5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Notice Jesus did not use the word AGAIN in verse 5. Notice also the word ENTER here.

Nick (like some Apostolic folks) thought Jesus was speaking of the natural birth. Jesus made it clear He wasn't in verse 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Jesus was NOT speaking of the natural birth but of the spiritual birth. 1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

The key to understanding this passge is found in 1 word: AGAIN.

1. Born again (verse 3)
2. Born of water (verse 5) Not "born AGAIN of water"
3. Born of Spirit (verse 5) Not "born again of Spirit"

Notice 1 more thing. Jesus never said Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of Heaven. Jesus was referring to the Kingdom of God (His Church) and not the Kingdom of Heaven. Its actually possible to be in the Kingdom of God, but miss the Kingdom of Heaven.

To really understand John 3- we have to understand what Jesus meant by AGAIN, SEE, ENTER, and KINGDOM OF GOD. If we don't, we'll just keep going in circles.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by OneAccord

Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Notice two words here; AGAIN and SEE. SEE means to understand, comprehend. Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot understand, comprehend the kingdom of God.

Compare John 3:3 with verse 5: Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Notice Jesus did not use the word AGAIN in verse 5. Notice also the word ENTER here.

Nick (like some Apostolic folks) thought Jesus was speaking of the natural birth. Jesus made it clear He wasn't in verse 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Jesus was NOT speaking of the natural birth but of the spiritual birth. 1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

The key to understanding this passge is found in 1 word: AGAIN.

1. Born again (verse 3)
2. Born of water (verse 5) Not "born AGAIN of water"
3. Born of Spirit (verse 5) Not "born again of Spirit"

Notice 1 more thing. Jesus never said Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of Heaven. Jesus was referring to the Kingdom of God (His Church) and not the Kingdom of Heaven. Its actually possible to be in the Kingdom of God, but miss the Kingdom of Heaven.

To really understand John 3- we have to understand what Jesus meant by AGAIN, SEE, ENTER, and KINGDOM OF GOD. If we don't, we'll just keep going in circles.

Yeah, and you guys conveniently skip right over verse 4 when going from verse 3 to 5.

[OneAccord]

Originally Posted by Rico

Yeah, and you guys conveniently skip right over verse 4 when going from verse 3 to 5.

No, I alluded to the fact that Nick misunderstood and thought Jesus was referring to the natural birth. I didn't list the verse, but I did refer to it. I'll post it here:

Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

Nick, an unregenerated, lost religious leader, just could not see (understand, comprehend) what Jesus was saying.

Nick (like some Apostolic folks) thought Jesus was speaking of the natural birth. Jesus made it clear He wasn't in verse 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Jesus was NOT speaking of the natural birth but of the spiritual birth. 1Jo 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

Jesus was amazed, it seems, that this "ruler of the Jews" didn't have even a clue as to the very basic teachings regarding salvation. Nick couldn't see the trees for the forest. Its equally amazing that, here in the 21st Century, there are still some who, like Nick, thinks Jesus was referring to the natural birth.

[stmatthew]

Jhn 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Jhn 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


In todays modern English

There was this dude named Nic, a boss man of the Jews.

Nic came scoping out Jesus one night, and said "Dude, I know you got connections, cause no body without connections can bring it on the way you do

Big J said to him, "I lie not homie, Unless you are born from above, You can't scope out what I am talking about".

Then Nic said, "Yo Big J, How can I be born from above when I am old. Can my momma birth me again?

Big J said, " Nic, unless you have had a water and a Spirit birth, you can't join my gang. your first birth gives you life here, but your second birth give you life everlasting. Are you tripping because I said you must be born from above?

[Rico]

Originally Posted by OneAccord

No, I alluded to the fact that Nick misunderstood and thought Jesus was referring to the natural birth.



Jesus was amazed, it seems, that this "ruler of the Jews" didn't have even a clue as to the very basic teachings regarding salvation. Nick couldn't see the trees for the forest. Its equally amazing that, here in the 21st Century, there are still some who, like Nick, thinks Jesus was referring to the natural birth.

Brother, I don't generally argue this point too much, mainly because people start to accuse me of being a one-stepper, when I'm not. I believe very much in baptism, always have. However, I can not, in good conscience, advocate that Jesus was talking about water baptism in that verse, although water baptism is most certainly an element of being spiritually born. Water baptism is always symbolic of burial when spoken of in NT salvation, never birth. Jesus is simply contrasting natural birth (what Nicodemus thought He was talking about) and spiritual birth. Feel free to see it any way you choose, but remember that there is a whole lot more in the Bible that can be used to prove the necessity of baptism. There's no need to take Jesus words out of context to get there.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Jhn 3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Jhn 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


In todays modern English

There was this dude named Nic, a boss man of the Jews.

Nic came scoping out Jesus one night, and said "Dude, I know you got connections, cause no body without connections can bring it on the way you do

Big J said to him, "I lie not homie, Unless you are born from above, You can't scope out what I am talking about".

Then Nic said, "Yo Big J, How can I be born from above when I am old. Can my momma birth me again?

Big J said, " Nic, unless you have had a water and a Spirit birth, you can't join my gang. your first birth gives you life here, but your second birth give you life everlasting. Are you tripping because I said you must be born from above?

Sounds good. Too bad it doesn't follow the conversation they actually had. Nice try though.