Inside the Mind of a Reformer

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

"Anyone who is to find Christ must first find the church. How could anyone know where Christ is and what faith is in him unless he knew where his believers are?"

Martin Luther

Look at this quote Daniel.

Do we believe this is true?

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster

“You are not only responsible for what you say, but also for what you do not say.”

Martin Luther

I love this quote.

So true.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Adino,

Times sure flies by quickly for you, Adino! It has been a little over a year since I've been involved with this forum... which includes a few months on NFCF and then here from the time AFF opened. I stayed in the "deep water" (can't remember it's real name) section on NFCF for a good two months before joining in the main discussion area.

Just curious, what quote did I quote from Augustine?

I agree the critic on Amazon sounded like he is a Catholic but there are other reviews of non Catholics who didn't think Oden accomplished his goal. I'll find out when I read it for myself.

I was trying to refer to the quote you posted from the Amazon review. This review has been there since Oden first came out with his book a few years ago. This was my reference. Sorry for the confusion.


LOL.... I just went back and read what I wrote. Here is the confusing statement:

I remember reading the quote you posted several years ago when I first purchased the book.

I did not mean to imply you posted the quote several years ago, I meant that I had read the quote several years ago when I first picked up Oden's book.

[Adino]

Pastor Poster,

My favorite so far is: "I have held many things in my hands, and I have lost them all; but whatever I have placed in God's hands, that I still possess."

[Nahum]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea
Herein lies another dilemma among those who believe the bulk of the Christian world is in apostasy...

when the Word of God and the plan of salvation become so cryptic that we believe we are the sole holder of the keys and the decoder ring to unlocking it then the number of the redeemed becomes smaller and smaller ...

John said he saw millions upon ... millions.

But surely you realize that these men, inluding Luther, Calvin and Wesley, would not recognize modern Christianity?

They would be repulsed by the lack of devotion and carnality that American Christians display. None of those men viewed God as a piggy bank. None of the reformers viewed the Church the way we do.

Luther felt he had unlocked something special. As did many other Protestant reformers at different junctures in history.

[RunningOnFaith]

Originally Posted by Adino

Have you read Thomas Oden's relatively new book called The Justification Reader in which he offers translations of Latin documents released by the Vatican teaching many appearances of the position prior to Luther?

No I haven't read it, I heard Ligon Duncan (a presbyterian preacher, recommend it). I live pretty close to a seminary library and I will try to get around to checking it out. Most of the early Fathers, including Augustine would have contended that the entirety of the Christian life was by grace alone. Within the definition of "grace alone", they would include meritorious works after conversion. This is the position of Catholic theology today as outlined by the Council of Trent and Catholic apologist today would be quick to tell you that they agree with the notion of "grace alone". I would be highly suprised if Thomas Oden found direct statements in the writings of the Fathers that described Justification by faith alone, this would stand it direct contridiction to what both McGrath and Geisler wrote concerning the subject, I would say that McGrath is probably the most esteemed living protestant historical theologian in the world.

[Steve Epley]

What Luther needed was what his followers need today that is to be born again according to Acts 2:38.

[RunningOnFaith]

Originally Posted by pelathais

As Adino responds with great flair, I will stumble into the fray.

1. Do you confuse the definitions on purpose here? The "historical Protestant, Baptistic, and Reformed Position" on Spirit baptism bears absolutely no resemblance to what "Oneness people" advance. None. To even try and connect the two is disingenuous at best!

And I see your point on the "other Pentecostals" and their "second work" belief; however "the historical Protestant, Baptistic, and Reformed Position" never once mandates speaking in tongues as evidence of the Holy Spirit baptism. To try and tie ourselves with their history is weak..

There is nothing disingenous about it whatsoever. The similarity is that both Oneness Pentecostals and those of the Reformation view both regard the Baptism of the Holy Spirit as essential, the conflict arises concerning the evidence of the Baptism. Lewis Sperry Chafer, a dispensational Calvinist, in his Systematic Theology outlines HS baptism and it relationship to conversion, regeneration and the empowering affect that it has in life of a Christian in a way that would be very similar to what a Oneness Pentecostal says happens in regard to HS baptism apart from the evidence. If I am confused please explain to me the Reformed perspective of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

In short, Oneness Pentecostals agree with the Reformed people on the essentiality of HS baptism and disagree with them about the evidence of it, we agree with the Trinitarian Pentecostals on the evidence of HS baptism, but disagree with them on its relationship to regeneration. In other words, there is not a two level Christianity (those with the HS Baptism and those without it).

Originally Posted by pelathais

And Calvin was a brute. Comparing his "standards" to Oneness Pentecostals is kind of like telling me that your grandmother was a sweet old lady because she was "no Jeffery Dalmer." I hope that you've got nicer things to say about her than that.

If you where to tell Sproul, Piper, MacArthur or other mainstream Evangelicals that Calvin was a brute, they would think you where off your rocker. They look at the man as a hero, they have entire seminary courses where they disect his "Institutes", repeat prayers that he said, etc. Even the Charismatic Roberts Liardon had him listed as one of God's generals. When you throw out the fact that Calvin had Servetus killed that will throw out responses like "Oh he was a man of his times, etc". My point was if this was some kind of great Reformer who had committed some atrocious crimes, and yet the wider Christian community at large cuts the man slack...........why is it that conservative Oneness brethern are regarded as legalists and slandered for applying standards in the Church.

[Michael The Disciple]

I hate to focus on MAN. Having said that when it comes to REFORMATION I will say from my view point one of the great reformers of history was Frank Ewart.

He brought to the public attention the truth of Oneness doctrine and the New Testament pattern of salvation.

To accept reformation one must accept they are wrong on certain issues. The modern day Oneness Churches dont understand there is more to the New Testament Church foundation than what even Ewart gave us, great as that was.

[Adino]

I thought I'd share a little of Thomas Oden's book, "The Justification Reader," to whet the appetite of those interested in his work.

First, an excerpt which I think gives the general focus of his book:

".... I will show that key texts on justification, especially Ephesians 2 and Romans 3, were thoroughly and critically examined by the ancient Christian writers and understood in much the same way that they were to be later rediscovered by the Reformation writers in their struggle against the medieval distortions. I am not arguing that there were no ambiguities in patristic teaching on justification - one can always find non-consensual aberrations and debates - but that there is strong central affirmation of the Pauline doctrine of justification in the patristic writers, which later became the defining doctrine of the Reformation." (The Justification Reader pg 24)

Following are several quotes shared by Oden:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith.... He did not require of us purity of life, but approving mere faith, God bestowed on us forgiveness of sins."

Theodoret of Cyrrhus (393 - 457ad)

"...But the Lord Christ is both God and the mercy seat, both the priest and the lamb, and he performed the work of our salvation by his blood, demanding only faith from us."

Theodoret of Cyrrhus (393 - 457ad)

"For we hold that a man is justified by faith apart from works of law.... If an example is required.... I think it must suffice to mention the thief on the cross, who asked Christ to save him and was told: 'Truly, this day you will be with me in paradise (Luke 23:43).... A man is justified by faith..... faith is the mark of those who are justified by God."

Origen (185 - 254ad)

"We therefore, who have been called by his will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, neither by our wisdom or understanding or piety, nor by the works we have wrought in holiness of heart, but by the faith by which almighty God has justified all men from the beginning, to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen. What, then, shall we do brethren? Shall we cease from good works, and shall we put an end to love? May the Master forbid that such should ever happen to us; rather let us be eager to perform every good work earnestly and willingly."

Clement of Rome (95ad)

"All thanksgiving for our salvation is to be given only to God. He extends his mercy to us so as to recall us to life precisely while we are straying.... thus we are not to glory in ourselves but in God, who has regenerated us by a heavenly birth through faith in Christ."

Ambrosiaster (4th century)

"...For 'by grace you are saved,' he [Paul] says, 'through faith.' Then so as to do no injury to free will, he allots a role to us, then takes it away again, saying 'and this not of ourselves'.... even faith, he says, is not from us..... even the act of faith is not self-initiated. It is, he says, 'the gift of God'....."

John Chrysostom (349 - 407ad)