Sure, I remember that. It doesn't explain why you have faith in what you have chosen to have faith in. But I'll go out on a limb here and guess that it is because God led you to that faith. He is the author and finisher of your faith. Something like that?
Great that it works for you. Will it work for everyone? The obviously true answer is "no". But some will answer "yes" anyway. They think they have to, or something.
(Not sure what passages I "ignore". Want to fill me in?)
Not any specific passage other than you do not believe that the bible is the word inspired by God, that is what I meant by "ignore", and yet you use 1 Peter 3:15. I don't get why, thats all.
Not any specific passage other than you do not believe that the bible is the word inspired by God, that is what I meant by "ignore", and yet you use 1 Peter 3:15. I don't get why, thats all.
Really?
OK, let me explain. Yes, you are correct that I don't believe everything in the Bible. I know that you do. But that doesn't mean I disbelieve everything in the Bible. (And it sure isn't "ignoring" anything.) It also doesn't prevent me from challenging a believer in their stance on certain scriptures. E.g., I find a scripture that says X. There are sometimes logical consequences of actually believing X. Sometimes, believers don't want to accept those consequences, or that they even exist.
But I'm really confused why you don't "get" why I cite 1 Peter 3:15. It's a good scripture, for one thing. I actually admire it! You should be ready to answer anyone that asks for a reason for the hope that is in you!
(Still waiting for that, by the way. Why did you choose to have faith, and why faith in the Bible?)
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
I was once blind like Timmy is now, but the Lord in his mercy opened my eyes to the truth.
Timmy at one time did see, but the Lord for his own reasons has closed Tim's eyes to the truth.
For God (Yes this comes from God himself) gave Tim a strong delusion, that he might believe a lie.
The delusion is so strong that no one can ever dissuade Tim that it is real, only Tim can do that by repenting of his sins and asking God for forgiveness, the ball is really in Tim's court.
Ah, now you're talking, Flamingoword. As long as either side keeps talking in abstract terms, then atheists (or agnostics) can prove little except to show the process and effects of faith and compare it with the process and effects of reason. And that's probably too general and abstract also, and not interesting to a typical believer. But once you actually make a specific claim about the nature of your god, or (even better) what your god insists that you believe, then at that point we have something substantive to analyze. Let's review your scenario above, because it is probably fairly orthodox christian belief, and I often pondered the same issue when I was a believer, and often "got help" to better understand the (fundamentalist, if not also apostolic) christian position about this from my teachers and pastors. (Not reflected below, of course.)
Your beginning premise:
<<The Lord has closed Tim's eyes to the truth.>>
Of course, the christian god's power is so powerful that the nature and ability of the god is labeled "omnipotent". So, it's obvious that if the god closes someone's eyes, ("sends a delusion") then there is no other power in existence that can undo the job that your god performed. When God sends a delusion, that person should be fixed for sure, right? What possible motivation can there be for such an unbeliever to even possibly WANT to see your "truth" and ever, ever want to repent? Such a deluded person is under the effect of an OMNIPOTENT level of delusion and therefore cannot see otherwise. Or does all that expire at midnight? If so, that's not a very "strong delusion" at all!
<<The delusion is so strong that no one can ever dissuade Tim that it is real>>
That part could make sense until you add the other contradiction.
<<only Tim can do that by repenting, the ball is in his court.>>
Ah, so Timmy's original doubt plus the strong delusion your god sends still isn't quite absolutely strong enough, so that he can still repent just like that? (bang! smacks tennis ball.) According to Paul, only god "leads" a sinner to true repentance (the kind that "need not to be repented of...") What an inefficient, crossed-up use of power and effort, considering Tim was already plenty lost. What makes the god revoke the delusion? Rather, a good god could just wait until Poor Timmy comes to his senses without making things impossibly harder due to the god using his superpowers against Timmy's mind. If Timmy does have something like "free will," then hasn't the strong delusion effectively dominated it, or have you just invented new brand of "strong delusion," suitable just for such an invented situation?
Rather, the better explanation is that Yahweh god is yet another god patterned after human characteristics (anthropomorphism) and in this case the pattern is the kind of tyrant that ancient desert dwelling societies respected and obeyed-- strong, capricious, mischievous, and tricky! Or even better, the god itself is doing just fine, thank-you, but the invented theology to explain this god is patterned after another kind of human--the type who gets confused when driving anywhere more than three blocks. Like Mr. Magoo.
Actually, I do hope (just hope, not believe) there is a god after all. But pretty sure (if there is) it won't be the supposed god you say is so great. It's a bigger delusion (than Timmy's!) to really think the god who needs to "send delusions" to children is somehow consistent with being all-Loving, all-Knowing, all powerful.
Ah, now you're talking, Flamingoword. As long as either side keeps talking in abstract terms, then atheists (or agnostics) can prove little except to show the process and effects of faith and compare it with the process and effects of reason. And that's probably too general and abstract also, and not interesting to a typical believer. But once you actually make a specific claim about the nature of your god, or (even better) what your god insists that you believe, then at that point we have something substantive to analyze. Let's review your scenario above, because it is probably fairly orthodox christian belief, and I often pondered the same issue when I was a believer, and often "got help" to better understand the (fundamentalist, if not also apostolic) christian position about this from my teachers and pastors. (Not reflected below, of course.)
Your beginning premise:
<<The Lord has closed Tim's eyes to the truth.>>
Of course, the christian god's power is so powerful that the nature and ability of the god is labeled "omnipotent". So, it's obvious that if the god closes someone's eyes, ("sends a delusion") then there is no other power in existence that can undo the job that your god performed. When God sends a delusion, that person should be fixed for sure, right? What possible motivation can there be for such an unbeliever to even possibly WANT to see your "truth" and ever, ever want to repent? Such a deluded person is under the effect of an OMNIPOTENT level of delusion and therefore cannot see otherwise. Or does all that expire at midnight? If so, that's not a very "strong delusion" at all!
<<The delusion is so strong that no one can ever dissuade Tim that it is real>>
That part could make sense until you add the other contradiction.
<<only Tim can do that by repenting, the ball is in his court.>>
Ah, so Timmy's original doubt plus the strong delusion your god sends still isn't quite absolutely strong enough, so that he can still repent just like that? (bang! smacks tennis ball.) According to Paul, only god "leads" a sinner to true repentance (the kind that "need not to be repented of...") What an inefficient, crossed-up use of power and effort, considering Tim was already plenty lost. What makes the god revoke the delusion? Rather, a good god could just wait until Poor Timmy comes to his senses without making things impossibly harder due to the god using his superpowers against Timmy's mind. If Timmy does have something like "free will," then hasn't the strong delusion effectively dominated it, or have you just invented new brand of "strong delusion," suitable just for such an invented situation?
Rather, the better explanation is that Yahweh god is yet another god patterned after human characteristics (anthropomorphism) and in this case the pattern is the kind of tyrant that ancient desert dwelling societies respected and obeyed-- strong, capricious, mischievous, and tricky! Or even better, the god itself is doing just fine, thank-you, but the invented theology to explain this god is patterned after another kind of human--the type who gets confused when driving anywhere more than three blocks. Like Mr. Magoo.
Actually, I do hope (just hope, not believe) there is a god after all. But pretty sure (if there is) it won't be the supposed god you say is so great. It's a bigger delusion (than Timmy's!) to really think the god who needs to "send delusions" to children is somehow consistent with being all-Loving, all-Knowing, all powerful.
I feel only sadness and pity toward you, you are indeed a most wretched creature.
I too was once lost, wretched and blind, outside the covenant of God, but God in his mercy came unto me and opened my eyes to see his truth.
All your philosophizing and human wisdom will not avail you in the day of Judgment.
You feel yourself superior because you have forsaken God, the fountain of true wisdom. So that now you are calling wisdom that which is folly.
__________________
**Original Matthew 28:19 Restored**
I feel only sadness and pity toward you, you are indeed a most wretched creature.
I too was once lost, wretched and blind, outside the covenant of God, but God in his mercy came unto me and opened my eyes to see his truth.
All your philosophizing and human wisdom will not avail you in the day of Judgment.
You feel yourself superior because you have forsaken God, the fountain of true wisdom. So that now you are calling wisdom that which is folly.
FlamingoWord, you continue to offer the same rebuttal, ie, my everlasting punishment as found in your theology, as if it has much to do with the specific points I make. Again, "ad hominem attack" is what people do as last resort when they can't defeat the logic of an opponent. So, okay then, let's call it a given and a big "point taken" that I am all of that according to your theology: "pathetic, pitiful, depraved, and hellbound." (Oh yeah, and one more offered in jest by shazeep--my feet stink.) One would think and hope that the people who have access to the god (I Cor 2:16, "We have the mind of Christ") should be able to mount some startlingly excellent explanations, rather than to keep repeating what's a-'gonna happen to me in the Sweet Bye and Bye. Or maybe you are taking the convenient exit ramp that scripture provides to all believers who can't stick with the issues, "Answer not a fool according to his folly". But a few christians these days relish to show how their god and their theology is actually coherent, cogent, logical. I merely critique the biblical worldview based on not much more than assuming (pretending) a few obvious premises--1. The god is Omniscient, Omnipotent, All-good, All-Loving (or at least Very Loving!) And given that, are the rest of scriptures consistent with any normal meaning of the god's claimed qualities? I show evidence that indicates "no" and keep hoping you or someone here could argue yes (instead of threats for me.) Of course, there's another exit ramp that works conveniently (when you're otherwise hogtied) I Cor 2:14, "the natural man cannot understand the things of the spirit, because they are spiritually discerned." Or, a Living Bible-type paraphrase would be, "I perceive an invisible force that helps me to believe what I believe, and no amount of evidence or logic can dissuade me from believing it's from my God, so there's no discussion otherwise."
What faith does to people is not unlike how a hopelessly codependent girlfriend continues to defend her abusive lover. Her relationship may include having "good feelings" daily, but typically the relationship is held together by the threat of getting beat up or other punitive action if she should dare choose to leave the graces of her protector-man. You no doubt claim your relationship with god brings a sense of divine love and freedom; yet at the same time everlasting destruction awaits you or anyone else who doesn't continually buy into such a "relationship", right? That fits the description of a fear-based relationship, even if there are "good feelings" involved every day. You can't leave the relationship without your erstwhile lover god decreeing everlasting punishment. Alternately, a healthy dose of self-respect is required to be able to escape from a such a fear-based relationship.
As for my "superiority", no, I haven't thought in such hierarchical terms for several decades, if ever. Some people have greater or lesser abilities in different areas, not amounting to overall superiority. I'm sure flamingos can catch frogs better than I because they are evolved to do so. I do admit to a self-congratulatory tone, however. And that is probably detectable in many people such as I who had enough natural self-respect to finally close the door on a Supposed God whose basic deal is, "Love me or I destroy you." It's a small mind to either propose such a deal, or to accept such a deal. As mentioned above, "Codependent lovers." And unfortunately, the more powerful of the two exists as a collective fantasy of the compliant half.
God loves us and will torture us in hell us if we don't love him back.
True or false?
God loves us.
If you reject to go to where God is, then what other alternative is there?
God does not torture anyone, he simply refuses you entry into heaven.
If you reject God (Who is light), then there is only darkness for you.
if you reject God (Who is love), then there is only hate for you.
if you reject God (Who is happiness), then there is only sadness for you.
If you reject God (Who is all that is good), then there is only all that is bad for you.
__________________
**Original Matthew 28:19 Restored**
If you reject to go to where God is, then what other alternative is there?
God does not torture anyone, he simply refuses you entry into heaven.
If you reject God (Who is light), then there is only darkness for you.
if you reject God (Who is love), then there is only hate for you.
if you reject God (Who is happiness), then there is only sadness for you.
If you reject God (Who is all that is good), then there is only all that is bad for you.
I said nothing about rejecting to go where God is. I said "if we don't love him back."
So, is my statement (not some other statement) true or false, your theology?
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
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