What is a Happening Church to you? What is a Dead church?

[seguidordejesus]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

Perhaps the best response would be "We are not God. HE can save who HE wants and WE cannot judge."

No offense meant, but that seems like a cop out. We are given his word, and that tells us how to be saved. If we can't make our minds up on that, perhaps we need to keep studying until we do.

[seguidordejesus]

Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover

The Mennonites and Amish consider themselves born again Christians through their acceptance of Jesus Christ as their Savior. Their relationship to God is as other Christians would relate.

On the question of assurance of salvation however, they may vary from other Christians. While beliving it is possible... they may not say so, and rather express a "hope" for such. In some circles of Mennonite and Amish faith it is seen as arrogant to ploclaim one is "saved".

I was Old Order Mennonite.

Thanks for your response. That's actually a little different answer than I was expecting, but I had no previous knowledge. I just assumed they would place importance on their traditions in their doctrine of salvation.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by seguidordejesus

Thanks for your response. That's actually a little different answer than I was expecting, but I had no previous knowledge. I just assumed they would place importance on their traditions in their doctrine of salvation.

I am giving you this answer as the proper anabaptist response. It does NOT mean I don't see legalism as a very real problem in the ultra conservative Amish and Mennonite churches. There is much I take issue with in my former denomination, and you do hit on a problem.

[RandyWayne]

No offense meant, but that seems like a cop out. We are given his word, and that tells us how to be saved. If we can't make our minds up on that, perhaps we need to keep studying until we do.

Which would imply that we DON'T know yet which would in turn imply that ALL of those who came before us were wrong and suffering in eternal torment.

Here is great experiment: First, clear your mind. For the purpose of this test, forget EVERYTHING you know, or think you know, or were taught (which is usually the same) about salvation. Second, read the gospels. Third, when you come to ACTS 2:38, ask yourself, "do we follow this literally?". Obviously it is saying that FIRST you must repent, NEXT be baptized THEN you WILL receive the gift of the holy ghost. How many received it BEFORE being baptized? (<---- lifting my hand) Yet, a literal reading would indicate that I am not saved because I did not do things in the proper order. Also, it says YOU WILL RECEIVE indicating that it isn't something that one must spend weeks/months/years seeking. (I got it within 1 - 1 1/2 seconds of saying "God, I am sorry....." while standing at my seat during song service)

Finally, there is that pesky story that so many conservative apostolics have to explain away about a certain thief......

[seguidordejesus]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

Which would imply that we DON'T know yet which would in turn imply that ALL of those who came before us were wrong and suffering in eternal torment.

Here is great experiment: First, clear your mind. For the purpose of this test, forget EVERYTHING you know, or think you know, or were taught (which is usually the same) about salvation. Second, read the gospels. Third, when you come to ACTS 2:38, ask yourself, "do we follow this literally?". Obviously it is saying that FIRST you must repent, NEXT be baptized THEN you WILL receive the gift of the holy ghost. How many received it BEFORE being baptized? (<---- lifting my hand) Yet, a literal reading would indicate that I am not saved because I did not do things in the proper order. Also, it says YOU WILL RECEIVE indicating that it isn't something that one must spend weeks/months/years seeking. (I got it within 1 - 1 1/2 seconds of saying "God, I am sorry....." while standing at my seat during song service)

Finally, there is that pesky story that so many conservative apostolics have to explain away about a certain thief......

So what? You've deconstructed the verse to make it mean nothing at all?

[Rico]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

Which would imply that we DON'T know yet which would in turn imply that ALL of those who came before us were wrong and suffering in eternal torment.

Here is great experiment: First, clear your mind. For the purpose of this test, forget EVERYTHING you know, or think you know, or were taught (which is usually the same) about salvation. Second, read the gospels. Third, when you come to ACTS 2:38, ask yourself, "do we follow this literally?". Obviously it is saying that FIRST you must repent, NEXT be baptized THEN you WILL receive the gift of the holy ghost. How many received it BEFORE being baptized? (<---- lifting my hand) Yet, a literal reading would indicate that I am not saved because I did not do things in the proper order. Also, it says YOU WILL RECEIVE indicating that it isn't something that one must spend weeks/months/years seeking. (I got it within 1 - 1 1/2 seconds of saying "God, I am sorry....." while standing at my seat during song service)

Finally, there is that pesky story that so many conservative apostolics have to explain away about a certain thief......

RW, there are examples in the Bible of people receiving the HG prior to baptism. You will not, however, find one of anyone receiving the HG prior to repentance. This is something I wondered about when I first got into church. Finding the story on Cornelius was a relief for me.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

Which would imply that we DON'T know yet which would in turn imply that ALL of those who came before us were wrong and suffering in eternal torment.

Here is great experiment: First, clear your mind. For the purpose of this test, forget EVERYTHING you know, or think you know, or were taught (which is usually the same) about salvation. Second, read the gospels. Third, when you come to ACTS 2:38, ask yourself, "do we follow this literally?". Obviously it is saying that FIRST you must repent, NEXT be baptized THEN you WILL receive the gift of the holy ghost. How many received it BEFORE being baptized? (<---- lifting my hand) Yet, a literal reading would indicate that I am not saved because I did not do things in the proper order. Also, it says YOU WILL RECEIVE indicating that it isn't something that one must spend weeks/months/years seeking. (I got it within 1 - 1 1/2 seconds of saying "God, I am sorry....." while standing at my seat during song service)

Finally, there is that pesky story that so many conservative apostolics have to explain away about a certain thief......

Then after realizing you received the Spirit baptism before water baptism, you should relate to Acts 10 better than Acts 2:38. It's the same message any way you process it.

[RandyWayne]

RW, there are examples in the Bible of people receiving the HG prior to baptism. You will not, however, find one of anyone receiving the HG prior to repentance. This is something I wondered about when I first got into church. Finding the story on Cornelius was a relief for me.

I agree 100%, but I brought it up because I have heard raging debates where one side said it was NOT possible to receive the HG prior to baptism. The Lord gave it to ME in such a hard, "forced upon", and sudden manner that it left NO doubt in my mind what had happened, unlike so many who who have their heads shaken till their normal mumblings sound like tongues, at which point the preacher starts shouting that "another received it!".
My point is that while I don't agree with those who say it is impossible to receive prior to baptism, I LITERAL and very focused reading of that ONE verse would indicate that to be the case. AND make them feel secure in proclaiming that any who die, having received the HG prior to baptism, as being lost and in eternal torment.

[stmatthew]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

I agree 100%, but I brought it up because I have heard raging debates where one side said it was NOT possible to receive the HG prior to baptism. The Lord gave it to ME in such a hard, "forced upon", and sudden manner that it left NO doubt in my mind what had happened, unlike so many who who have their heads shaken till their normal mumblings sound like tongues, at which point the preacher starts shouting that "another received it!".
My point is that while I don't agree with those who say it is impossible to receive prior to baptism, I LITERAL and very focused reading of that ONE verse would indicate that to be the case. AND make them feel secure in proclaiming that any who die, having received the HG prior to baptism, as being lost and in eternal torment.

I do not know anyone that believes, nor have I read any posts on AFF, where it was said that one must be baptized prior to their receiving the Holy Ghost.

Now as far as the thief, he died under the old covenant, unless you believe that Jesus saved prior to his ascension and blood offering in the heavenlies. Any scholar worth his weight in pencils will tell you that the New Testament Church started at Pentecost.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by RandyWayne

I agree 100%, but I brought it up because I have heard raging debates where one side said it was NOT possible to receive the HG prior to baptism. The Lord gave it to ME in such a hard, "forced upon", and sudden manner that it left NO doubt in my mind what had happened, unlike so many who who have their heads shaken till their normal mumblings sound like tongues, at which point the preacher starts shouting that "another received it!".
My point is that while I don't agree with those who say it is impossible to receive prior to baptism, I LITERAL and very focused reading of that ONE verse would indicate that to be the case. AND make them feel secure in proclaiming that any who die, having received the HG prior to baptism, as being lost and in eternal torment.

Hmmm. Interesting. I have never heard of anyone arguing that things absolutely have to happen in the order they are listed in Acts 2:38, other than the fact that no one can receive the Holy Ghost prior to repentance.