Reading Fudge's Book Again

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Sarah

This thread reminds me of an incident that happened at the first UPC General Conference I ever attended. The year was either 1964 or 65, and it was in Grand Rapids, MI. Do any of you remember that conference? Bro Sam and Sis Fella are the only ones I can think of who would be old enough on this forum to remember, besides myself. Anyhow......

A Chinese man was brought to address the audience. Some of our people had "run into him" in China. This man told us an amazing story. There was an underground church there, and had been there since the "dark ages". He grilled our people (not sure if they were UPC, but were Apostolic) for hours on the new birth.....repentance, water baptism, infilling of the HG....... before he would allow them to preach to his people. He said the only difference in his church and the American church is that their women did not cut their hair. lol

God has always had a church, somewhere, that teaches the way to be saved is through repentance, baptism in Jesus name, and receiving the Holy Ghost. Just like the one in the book of Acts.

I had heard that story but I don't remember that it involved a GC. Such a find is incredible and would certainly attract a lot of attention. The activities of that group from the 1960's right up through today would make fascinating and encouraging news.

Who are they? Where are they? Any names? Places? Dates? Documents? Sounds a lot like the "2 million Urshanites in the Soviet Union." As the Iron Curtain came down I met with Russian Pentecostals. For the most part they would just stare at you with unbelief when you asked them about Oneness believers and Jesus Name baptism. They had never heard of such a doctrine.

I don't want to sound like I'm being cruel toward the hopes of others; but put yourself in my shoes- and the shoes of thousands of others. We had hope for just this sort of thing. We've got blank pages in our books and sermon materials waiting to be filled in with this news. But if we're going to stake our reputations and ministries on something, we want a little proof.

That proof will put the excited edge into our voices. We need a little certainty to go on to be persuasive toward our critics. Try presenting a paper based upon the conclusions of "After the Way Called Heresy" and "Ancient Champions of Oneness" in an academic setting. Such writings are not even received well in Oneness Symposiums.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Adino it is good to see you posting again though we NEVER agree. I have NOT found one iota of proof that Cook was a Campbellite. And I have looked since you brought it up a couple of years ago. What sources are you quoting BESIDES Bernie???????????????????????????????

What's the matter Steve? Haven't you stirred up enough courage to talk to Bernie personally about this yet?

From the pen of Cook himself: Glenn A. Cook, "The Kingdom Message," Vol. 1, No. 1, August?, 1933, p. 2...

"The writer [Cook speaking of himself] was raised among the Campbellites, as they were called in those days, and has seen hundreds baptized to get into that organization. Water baptism was all that was necessary, and in later years I have had these same people ridicule me when I told them they needed the Spirit-filled life."

I understand the original article is at Flower Pentecostal Heritage Center in Springfield, MO.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Adino

The point is that your interpretation of the new birth does not have a single historical witness. I can easily give you alternative interpretations of all the core passages you would use as prooftext to support the water/spirit new birth position. There is far more proof that the Apostles held to these alternative views than there is for the newly concocted water/spirit position.

It cannot be proven that anyone in history ever interpreted the new birth in Scripture as do those who hold to the water/spirit new birth doctrine. We can see the development of the doctrine in the writings of Ewart, Haywood, Urshan and a few others. To say the apostles held the interpretive position of these who admitted a new revelation from heaven in the early 20th century demands an extreme dose of wishful thinking.

No one has ever supplied a single witness who has held the new birth doctrine as was newly revealed to early 20th Oneness Pentecostal preachers. Light, with all due respect, you need to come to terms with the actual history.

Originally Posted by Adino

The late church historian, Rev. Marvin M. Arnold who wrote, "The Origin and Spread of Man," "History of the Christian Church," "Nicaea and the Nicene Council of AD 325," "Pentecost (Acts 2:38 in America) Before Azusa," "Apostolic History Outline" and "The Bible Trinity and Matthew 28:19" could not find a single witness to the current water/spirit interpretation. If someone else has succeeded where he failed, please show us the historical evidence. Thank you.

Originally Posted by Adino

What's the matter Steve? Haven't you stirred up enough courage to talk to Bernie personally about this yet?

From the pen of Cook himself: Glenn A. Cook, "The Kingdom Message," Vol. 1, No. 1, August?, 1933, p. 2...

"The writer [Cook speaking of himself] was raised among the Campbellites, as they were called in those days, and has seen hundreds baptized to get into that organization. Water baptism was all that was necessary, and in later years I have had these same people ridicule me when I told them they needed the Spirit-filled life."

I understand the original article is at Flower Pentecostal Heritage Center in Springfield, MO.

HMMM ... another myth dispelled.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by BobDylan

I cited historical accounts of oneness monarchians throughout history in a thread in Deep Waters called "Ancient Monarchians in History"... There is at least in a nutshell evidence as to the existence of oneness theology all throughout history.

If you read my earlier post you might have seen that I was raised under the late Rev. Marvin M. Arnold. Without looking at your citings I would guess some may have come from his works. Like I said before, he failed to find a single witness who taught the soteriological water/spirit position as is taught by so many in Oneness Pentecostalism today. If you can succeed where he failed I would very much impressed.

I wrote to Rev. Chalfant about this issue as well. He could not produce a single witness either.

[tssp]

Originally Posted by Sarah

This thread reminds me of an incident that happened at the first UPC General Conference I ever attended. The year was either 1964 or 65, and it was in Grand Rapids, MI. Do any of you remember that conference? Bro Sam and Sis Fella are the only ones I can think of who would be old enough on this forum to remember, besides myself. Anyhow......

A Chinese man was brought to address the audience. Some of our people had "run into him" in China. This man told us an amazing story. There was an underground church there, and had been there since the "dark ages". He grilled our people (not sure if they were UPC, but were Apostolic) for hours on the new birth.....repentance, water baptism, infilling of the HG....... before he would allow them to preach to his people. He said the only difference in his church and the American church is that their women did not cut their hair. lol

God has always had a church, somewhere, that teaches the way to be saved is through repentance, baptism in Jesus name, and receiving the Holy Ghost. Just like the one in the book of Acts.

I remember that GC, it's the only one I've ever been to. I was quite young at the time so about the only thing I can remember from it was that Dottie Rambo was there.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Adino

If you read my earlier post you might have seen that I was raised under the late Rev. Marvin M. Arnold. Without looking at your citings I would guess some may have come from his works. Like I said before, he failed to find a single witness who taught the soteriological water/spirit position as is taught by so many in Oneness Pentecostalism today. If you can succeed where he failed I would very much impressed.

I wrote to Rev. Chalfant about this issue as well. He could not produce a single witness either.

BD ... separates the aspect of Oneness Christological doctrine w/ Oneness soteriological doctrine ... he feels that the truth of the Godhead has survived through time... the only flaws w/ this argument are:

1. He also maintains that God's full truth has survived the generations ... but his witnesses seem to only have partial truth.

2. Oneness PAJC doctrine is by definition linked not only to their view of the Godhead but also by the necessity of Jesus name baptism for the remission of sins.

3. Many of the examples he gives hold heretical Christological views

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Adino

What's the matter Steve? Haven't you stirred up enough courage to talk to Bernie personally about this yet?

From the pen of Cook himself: Glenn A. Cook, "The Kingdom Message," Vol. 1, No. 1, August?, 1933, p. 2...

"The writer [Cook speaking of himself] was raised among the Campbellites, as they were called in those days, and has seen hundreds baptized to get into that organization. Water baptism was all that was necessary, and in later years I have had these same people ridicule me when I told them they needed the Spirit-filled life."

I understand the original article is at Flower Pentecostal Heritage Center in Springfield, MO.

Adino I plan on going to Branson in Nov. I will visit the Flower Pentecostal Heritage Center. I don't trust Bernie. It is that simple. I find it hard to believe a disciple of Durham having Campbellite leanings. I promise you I have looked high and low for any history to corroborate this and found none. But if I go and the proof is there I will post it here. That wouldn't prove his veiw on baptism wrong I happen to believe baptism remits sins like they do only their baptism is NOT NT water baptism in Jesus Name. But I am man enough to confess I was wrong on this matter if I am proven wrong. Again it is good to see you posting again. Have you heard from our mutual friends lately I have not?

[BobDylan]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

I see some parallels between the progressive light doctrine and the Mormon doctrine of apostasy and restoration.

Mormons believe that the early Christian church fell away from Christ's original organization (the apostasy) and that that church was restored through Joseph Smith in the 1800's (the restoration).

What do you believe Dan? Where was the true church between 500AD and 1500AD? What's your take on the history of the church?

[SDG]

Originally Posted by BobDylan

What do you believe Dan? Where was the true church between 500AD and 1500AD? What's your take on the history of the church?

I hold a PCI view, BD. Hence, the Church are those who place their faith in Jesus Christ.... I along w/ other Apostolics, like Howard Goss, believe the Baptists and other believers will be saved. oloroid

The Church is not defined by your parameters.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Adino I plan on going to Branson in Nov. I will visit the Flower Pentecostal Heritage Center. I don't trust Bernie. It is that simple. I find it hard to believe a disciple of Durham having Campbellite leanings. I promise you I have looked high and low for any history to corroborate this and found none. But if I go and the proof is there I will post it here. That wouldn't prove his veiw on baptism wrong I happen to believe baptism remits sins like they do only their baptism is NOT NT water baptism in Jesus Name. But I am man enough to confess I was wrong on this matter if I am proven wrong. Again it is good to see you posting again. Have you heard from our mutual friends lately I have not?

Good to see you again as well, Steve. I think you'd really like Bernie once you gave him a chance.

Hey, go to youtube.com and do a search for Jeff [using his first and last name]. He is now down in Tennessee singing karoake. I understand he needs your prayer, Bro.

God bless