IT is the Holy Ghost!

[SDG]

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

Jhn 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

I'm no Bible Scholar, and generally shy away from these types of debates, but isn't the latter portion of the verse: "and it abode upon him," speaking more in relation to the literal dove than the Spirit?

The Spirit descended from heaven . . . like a dove . . . and it abode upon him. I take the "it" to mean the literal manifestation of the dove, not the spiritual.

Am I way of[f] on this?

Nope.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

1Pe 1:11 ερευνωντες Searching 2045 V-PAP-NPM εις of 1519 PREP τινα what 5101 I-ASM η or 2228 PRT ποιον what manner 4169 I-ASM καιρον of time 2540 N-ASM εδηλου did signify 1213 V-IAI-3S το the 3588 T-NSN εν which was in 1722 PREP αυτοις them 846 P-DPM πνευμα Spirit 4151 N-NSN χριστου of Christ 5547 N-GSM προμαρτυρομενον when it testified beforehand 4303 V-PNP-NSN τα the 3588 T-APN εις 1519 PREP χριστον Christ 5547 N-ASM παθηματα sufferings 3804 N-APN και and 2532 CONJ τας the 3588 T-APF μετα that should follow 3326 PREP ταυτα 5023 D-APN δοξας glory. 1391 N-APF


Joh 1:32 και And 2532 CONJ εμαρτυρησεν bare record 3140 V-AAI-3S ιωαννης John 2491 N-NSM λεγων saying 3004 V-PAP-NSM οτι 3754 CONJ τεθεαμαι I saw 2300 V-RNI-1S το the 3588 T-ASN πνευμα Spirit 4151 N-ASN καταβαινον descending 2597 V-PAP-ASN ωσει like 5616 ADV περιστεραν a dove 4058 N-ASF εξ from 1537 PREP ουρανου heaven 3772 N-GSM και and 2532 CONJ εμεινεν it abode 3306 V-AAI-3S επ upon 1909 PREP αυτον him. 846 P-ASM

Daniel,

In neither of the verses you quoted did the translator translate as you assert they did. They did not mistranslate the word 'to','ho', or 'o' because those words just aren't there. In each verse they used a pronoun they thought was appropriate for the antecedent noun, a pronoun which is implied in the verb itself.



You may see a creative license with the KJV translators but that license is taken with other translators as well.

Do you think the Spirit of God has a gender? The NAS translators chose to
use the pronoun, he, but the pronoun, he, is not in the Greek text.

The word ho is there ... my dear Mizpeh ... it languages there are variations of root words ... hate to break to you ... but according to Strong's the word ho ... has variations ... to ... tav etc.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by HeavenlyOne

I think you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. Jesus was also humanity, so I'm asking, what is male, the humanity or the deity, and if the latter is the answer, what purpose does having a gender make to God?



But for what purpose? For us, or for the angels? And do angels have the physical characteristics of gender? What makes them male, other than just being referred to in that manner?

We have the masculinity in the names as Father and Son and, I believe I read that, the"Comforter" as referring to the Holy Ghost is masculine in the Greek.

I also remember reading that the writer used the masculine form of the demonstrative pronoun ekeinos ("that male one"). Thus, breaking the grammatical agreement that was expected by native language readers. It then was a clear indication of the author's intention to unambiguously convey the Holy Spirit as masculine.

[SDG]

Here is John 1:19 parsed in the Greek... please find it as it is connoted in the English language ... if you can ... as to describe an inanimate object, animal or general idea ...


eraunwntevVerb : Present : Active : Participle : Nominative : Plural : Masculine 2045eraunaw

eivPreposition1519eiv
tinaInterrogative Pronoun : Accusative : Singular : Masculine 5101 tiv

hConjunction 2228h

poionInterrogative Pronoun : Accusative : Singular : Masculine 4169 poiov

kaironNoun : Accusative : Singular : Masculine2540 kairov

edhlou Verb : 3rd Person : Imperfect : Active : Indicative : Singular 1213 dhlow

toDefinite Article : Nominative : Singular : Neuter 3588 o

enPreposition 1722 en

autoivPersonal Pronoun : Dative : Plural : Masculine 846autov

pneumaNoun : Nominative : Singular : Neuter4151pneuma

XristouNoun : Genitive : Singular : Masculine5547 Xristov

promarturomenon Verb : Present : Middle : Participle : Nominative : Singular : Neuter 4303 promarturomai

taDefinite Article : Accusative : Plural : Neuter 3588o

eivPreposition1519 eiv

XristonNoun : Accusative : Singular : Masculine 5547Xristov

paqhmataNoun : Accusative : Plural : Neuter3804paqhma

kaiConjunction 2532kai

tav Definite Article : Accusative : Plural : Feminine 3588 o

metaPreposition3326meta

tauta Demonstrative Pronoun : Accusative : Plural : Neuter 5023 outov

docas Noun : Accusative : Plural : Feminine doca

[QUOTE=HeavenlyOne;185815]

I think you are misunderstanding what I'm saying. Jesus was also humanity, so I'm asking, what is male, the humanity or the deity, and if the latter is the answer, what purpose does having a gender make to God?

HO, when you use the word "also," there seems to be inherent in that thought that Jesus was structurally different that I am. Jesus was/is a Spirit. You and I are are spirits. Period. End of discussion. Book closed. Class dismissed. Lights out.

Jesus was/is nothing unlike you and I in this regard. He too, is a Spirit...albeit the Holy Spirit, omnipresent. Yes, Jesus is humanity. He is God. He is the ONLY man that is diety..or God. This man IS God. To use the word "also," somehow draws the reader to assume that one believes that there is a distinction between God and Jesus, the man. This is a mistaken idea. There is NO distinction between God and the man Christ Jesus except...now this is imporant to remember...EXCEPT in his mediatorial role in which he officiates in the office of SON of God...by which blood was shed for redemption...a work that was completed on the cross.

So let us not think in the "also." Let us rather think, "This man born of a virgin in Bethlehem of Judea, lived, taught, suffered under Pontius Pilate, died, rose again, ascended on high and has promised to return again, IS THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, GOD ALMIGHTY. In short, we must think: THAT MAN IS GOD.

The fact that He is a MAN, denotes gender.

But for what purpose? For us, or for the angels?

Well, I guess he could have come as a neuter, having no navel button, no sex, no nipples on his chest, no buttocks or colon or any such thing that made him entirely like me as Heb 2 states. But then, who would have received him. I doubt that the disciples would have received what they would have thought of as a curious freak.

And do angels have the physical characteristics of gender? What makes them male, other than just being referred to in that manner?

Well, the bible says that they are men. The word denotes gender in my opinion. Jacob wrestled with such a very powerful man all night long one night. The man finally put a whoopin on Jacob just before dawn. He limped for the rest of his life. Some fight. Some man.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by chaotic_resolve

Jhn 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

I'm no Bible Scholar, and generally shy away from these types of debates, but isn't the latter portion of the verse: "and it abode upon him," speaking more in relation to the literal dove than the Spirit?

The Spirit descended from heaven . . . like a dove . . . and it abode upon him. I take the "it" to mean the literal manifestation of the dove, not the spiritual.

Am I way of[f] on this?

I believe it says, "like as a dove", implying that whatever they saw it (lol) was identified with what the region knew of the dove - the most gentle and loving creature of all.

They captured them and put them in cages because they loved the gentle cooing and the beauty.

So, more than likely, whatever experience they had or saw after Jesus was baptized , the dove, was the most awesome, peaceful thing they could relate the experience to.

[SDG]

Secondly just because a word has gender in language does not mean it literally reflects its real literal gender, or lack thereof ...

Example: the word preacher in the Hebrew is feminine ... but of course we would not think that the preacher in Ecclesiastes is really a female.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Secondly just because a word has gender in language does not mean it literally reflects its real literal gender ...

Example: the word preacher in the Hebrew is feminine ... but of course we would not think that the preacher in Ecclesiastes is really a female.

Perhaps, then, it's an all encompassing word?

[SDG]

NIV translators didn't see an it either:

32Then John gave this testimony: "I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Eliseus

There seems to be some controversy over the use of the third person neuter pronoun 'it' in regard to the Holy Spirit. Some folks feel that it is wrong to speak of the Spirit of God as 'it'.

But please do notice the following:

Isa 34:16 Seek ye out of the book of the LORD, and read: no one of these shall fail, none shall want her mate: for my mouth it hath commanded, and his spirit it hath gathered them.

Here, Isaiah delivers a message from God, who speaks of his spirit as 'it'.

Jhn 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.

Here John the Baptist speaks of the Spirit as 'it'.

1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Here the apostle Peter speaks of the Spirit of Christ as 'it' and uses the term 'which' (instead of the religiously correct term 'who'.


Now let's look at one verse, which is actually merely a sample of numerous other similarly constructed verses:

1Jo 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, [even] Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

Notice the phrase 'it is the Spirit'. This is similar in construction to numerous other phrases which say 'it is ...X' where X is a person (male or female). For example, howmany times have you said 'it's God' or 'it's Jesus'? We see no problem whatsoever in saying 'it is [insert male or female person's name here]'.

Why is this possible? Why do we not say 'he is the Spirit' or 'He is God' in such situations? Technically and grammatically, the phrase 'it is the Spirit' is simply saying that 'the Spirit is it' where 'it' is the subject of the sentence or phrase.

Why is this not considered incorrect grammar? Because that is simply how language works.

To say 'it is ...X' is simply saying that 'it', an unidentified subject, is then identified as 'the Spirit' or 'God' or 'Fred' or 'Mary' or whatever you supply. There is no grammatical difficulty even though the pronoun is neuter and the noun which it refers to is masculine or feminine or whatever the case may be.

So, in short, there is both Biblical and grammatical precedent for using 'it' in reference to the Holy Spirit.

Does this mean the Spirit is 'an it' and not a 'He'? No, of course not. The pronoun does not determine the reality of the underlying noun. That would be contrary to all logic and language, not to mention common sense.

But, to put it simply, if the Bible itself occasionally refers to the Spirit of God as 'it' then it is not wrong for us to do so as well.

Very good. I understand this and I agree!