John3 and Romans2: Part2

[donfriesen1]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Noah was intimately familiar with and had faith in the preincarnate living Word.

I'd be interested to hear more of this and how it relates to the thread.

[donfriesen1]

Originally Posted by Amanah

No side chicks in the kingdom.

I laughed when I read this!

[donfriesen1]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Enoch was saved by obedient faith:

1. *Walking with God*: The phrase "walked with God" (Genesis 5:22, 24) suggests a close, personal relationship with God, implying Enoch's obedience to God's will and commands.

Of course it does, except that Paul says that thosbetween Adam and Moses had no law. If Enoch had commands it was from revelation and personal communication with God. We usually think of commands as from the Word. Beyond this, any commands are only speculation.

2. *Faith*: Hebrews 11:5-6 states, "By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death... Before he was taken, he was attested as having pleased God." This indicates that Enoch's faith was pleasing to God, which is a key aspect of obedience.

Of course, but we are still a long way from seeing evidence that he had the Word of God. Paul says that they had no law. Ro5.13. The evidence you point to that Enoch had faith in the Word is his ascending. The righteous life he had could have come from listening to his conscience in the day when they had no law.

3. *Righteousness*: Jude 1:14-15 describes Enoch as a righteous man who prophesied about God's judgment on the wicked. This suggests that Enoch lived a righteous life, in line with God's standards.

True but not based on evidence but assumption. Not allowed in a court of AFF law as firm evidence, right?

4. *Separation from the world*: Enoch's removal from the earth before the flood (Genesis 5:24) may symbolize his separation from the wickedness of his generation, indicating his obedience to God's call to be separate.

True but also not evidence that he had the Word. He had to have had something and Paul says that they did not have law. What did he have instead? I'd say it was conscience.

While the specifics of Enoch's obedience are not detailed, these points suggest that he lived a life of faith, righteousness, and close relationship with God, which were likely key aspects of his obedience.

We have precious little detail on Enoch. What we know is the time he lived in didn't have the Word. To say otherwise is to contradict Paul. The evidence of a godly life can't be contested but when we shouldn't contradict Paul we should look for other explanations.

Enoch is evidence that people can live godly by the conscience. He shows support for the view that those who don't ever have the Word can have faith enough in God to produce a righteous life, gaining them an entrance to heaven even though they may never have heard about being born again. That hese will be very few almost goes without sying, especially when there is so much Bible around, at least in our part of the world. Many other places this isn't true and there will be more of those 'without the Word' in those places. A few will heed their conscience.

[Amanah]

Romans 5:13
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

In context, Paul is contrasting Adam's sin (which brought death) with Jesus' righteousness (which brings life). Here's how this verse relates to being saved by faith in Jesus:

1. Sin existed before the Law (given to Moses): People sinning didn't know they were sinning against God's written law.
2. No condemnation without law: Without a clear definition of sin (via the Law), God didn't condemn people for their sins.
3. But sin was still present: Even without the Law, humanity was already separated from God due to Adam's sin (Romans 5:12).
4. Jesus' sacrifice covers sin: Through faith in Jesus, we are forgiven and justified (Romans 5:9-11), reconciled to God.
5. Faith in Jesus saves us: From the consequences of sin (death, separation from God), we are saved by faith in Jesus' sacrifice and resurrection.

In summary, Romans 5:13 highlights that sin existed before the Law, but God's grace through Jesus' sacrifice covers our sin, making salvation possible through faith in Him.

So even the old testament saints (Enoch) were saved by faith and obedience to God and the blood of the coming Messiah (Genesis 3:15).

[Amanah]

Enoch had the Word:
- Enoch walked with God (Genesis 5:22-24)
- The Word was God (John 1:1) and was present with God in the beginning (Genesis 1:1-3)
- The Word is Jesus Christ, the Messiah (John 1:14, Revelation 19:13)
- Genesis 3:15 is a messianic prophecy, promising a Savior who would crush Satan's head
- Enoch had a relationship with this preincarnate Word, walking with God and receiving promises (Genesis 5:22-24, Hebrews 11:5)
- Enoch's faith in God and the future Messiah (Hebrews 11:5, Revelation 13:8) saved him from death (Genesis 5:24, Hebrews 11:5)
- In essence, Enoch had the Word of God, the promise of the Messiah, and was saved by faith in Him

Here's a summary:

Enoch walked with God, who is the Word (John 1:1). This Word is Jesus Christ, the Messiah promised in Genesis 3:15. Enoch's faith in God and this future Messiah saved him, making him a testimony to the power of faith in the Word of God.

[Amanah]

Enoch was a prophet of God who spoke by the Spirit of God

- Enoch was a prophet of righteousness:
- Jude 1:14-15: "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him."
- Holy men of old spoke through the power of God that was in them:
- 2 Peter 1:20-21: "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
- 2 Samuel 23:2-3: "The Spirit of the Lord spake by me, and his word was in my tongue. The God of Israel said, the Rock of Israel spake to me, He that ruleth over men must be just, ruling in the fear of God."

These scriptures confirm Enoch's role as a prophet of righteousness and the fact that holy men of old spoke through the power of God, inspired by the Holy Spirit.

[donfriesen1]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Now I know you are intellectually dishonest. I addressed this question about Cornelius. . "Why these tactics are done is beyond me"? You sad, dishonourable, and dishonest man.

Nobody accused you of being underhanded and subversive, yet here you are complaining ad nauseum about how "some people" are just that towards you, all because they simply don't buy your baloney. You don't even have the integrity and forthrightness to just come on out and say ESAIAS is the one making all those naughty posts you don't like.

What a joke. Oh well, into the ignore bin you go.

Titus 3:10-11 KJV
A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; [11] Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

You seem to be upset and I wonder if there is a possiblity that we can again have good relations and good communications?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

You seem to be upset and I wonder if there is a possiblity that we can again have good relations and good communications?

Don, no need to ask if someone is mad, sad, or glad. The discussion can continue if both sides are willing. The only part you need to play is to strengthen your arguments. From where I sit it looks like you believe that people can gain salvation by good works and not Christ alone. But, please, by all means, convince me otherwise.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

We have precious little detail on Enoch. What we know is the time he lived in didn't have the Word. To say otherwise is to contradict Paul. The evidence of a godly life can't be contested but when we shouldn't contradict Paul we should look for other explanations.

Enoch is evidence that people can live godly by the conscience. He shows support for the view that those who don't ever have the Word can have faith enough in God to produce a righteous life, gaining them an entrance to heaven even though they may never have heard about being born again. That hese will be very few almost goes without sying, especially when there is so much Bible around, at least in our part of the world. Many other places this isn't true and there will be more of those 'without the Word' in those places. A few will heed their conscience.

Yet, we have New Testament books which refute your ideology in “living godly by conscience (whatever you think that is) The history of the early church and ministry of Paul the Apostle is contained in Acts. In Acts 17:28-31 Paul quotes Epimenides of Knossos, but doesn’t end at the Greek philosopher’s quote. Paul goes on to point out in Acts 17:30-31 that God once winked at man’s ignorance, but now in the New Testament all men must repent, accept the Gospel, that Jesus Christ is the unknown god which the monument on the Areopagus displayed. Because all men will be judged by that. The Apostle Paul didn’t leave the Athenians to go merrily on their way, but stood upon the Areopagus and called them superstitious for their adherence to pagan mythologies. Paul explains that the “unknown god” was Jesus Christ, the Creator of heaven and earth, who does not dwell in temples made with hands. The pagan Roman Greeks needed to have faith, but faith in Christ, and the only way they have a good conscience towards God, 1 Peter 3:21

[loran adkins]

After having read most of the comments, I think we have forgotten that Peter preached salvation from the untoward generation of that day. What was to happen to that generation? Christ told of a time that would come before that generation would pass that they would be destroyed. Could it be that the salvation was salvation from the destruction of Jerusalem, after all did not all the Christians flee Jerusalem before Rome destroyed it? After all the new testament was all written before the destruction.

We talk about the law being different today, yet it is the same law that was given by Moses, and made streamlined by Jesus when he said that we are to love God and love our neighbor as our self. Only we should have it written on our hearts and not on tablets of stone. Yet to many we still use the tablets of stone (the old testament) It still seems that we don't know what is right and wrong by our hearts we still must rely on words written thousands of years ago.

What good is it to have the Holy spirit if it does not lead and guide us we tend to get our info from ancient books instead of letting the spirit guide us.