Christmas is not pagan

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

No disrespect taken or perceived, I assure you.

I am happy to answer your questions.

First, I've never worked anywhere where I qualified for some kind of Christmas bonus, or a week off with pay, apart from vacation or PTO. In fact, I regularly volunteer to work secular holidays because they don't mean anything to me. Now, it happens that the last several years where I've worked, those places of employment close on Christmas day, and I have no control over that, but I recently worked Thanksgiving, even though I didn't have to, and I am working this Christmas Eve. I never participate in any Secret Santa programs, either. I also let everyone I know with whom I work, including my employers that I do not celebrate the day.

Apart from those things, there is something else here that needs to be addressed, regarding your question. It is the rare company indeed that just gives out actual Christmas bonuses, no matter what is claimed. The reality is, what most companies are doing at this time of year, is giving out End of Year Tax-Deductible Charitable Gifts and Donations for themselves, which they call "Christmas" bonuses, or etc. There is a difference.

Make no mistake. It's not about a company or corporation actively celebrating the Mass of Christ with gifts in the same way most people's families and/or friends give gifts to each other this time of year, in honor of the pagan holy day.

So, if a secular company gives out an End of Year, Tax-Deductible Charitable Gift or Donation, we really shouldn't think of it as a "Christmas" bonus or gift. In fact, it's not really even a gift given to you. It's a gift given to themselves, to help them with their own financial success, especially if the company or corporation has suffered any losses that year.

Be that as it may, I will tell you that the first year I stopped celebrating the Mass of Christ, my dad still offered me two hundred dollars for me to buy gifts for my kids, and I turned him down, but that's as close as I've personally ever come to being given any kind of Christmas bonus.

I wonder if this may bear on the subject?

Exodus 3:21-22 KJV
And I will give this people favour in the sight of the Egyptians: and it shall come to pass, that, when ye go, ye shall not go empty: [22] But every woman shall borrow of her neighbour, and of her that sojourneth in her house, jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment: and ye shall put them upon your sons, and upon your daughters; and ye shall spoil the Egyptians.

Also, 1st Samuel ch 6 is interesting, especially the fate of the oxen and cart (and gold statues) made by the Philistines.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Assertions get you no one where. Prove what you claim.

And as far as holding up in a court of law, now you're an expert in law. You have a degree in jurisprudence?

What's more, if this was a court of law, and the day stands accused of being pagan, and AFF is the jury, and I'm the prosecution, well, I've brought my charges and laid out my case against the Mass of Christ (as well Esaias and Amanah) but when it came to your turn, and the floor was yielded to you, as it were, all you did was re-assert the initial plea of not guilty, re-presumed the innocence of the day, then rested your case, offering no defense or rebuttal whatsoever.

That's about as close to "I'm taking my ball and going home" as one can get. It's pathetic.

Your lack of primary source documents actually proving a connection to paganism and Christman, paganism and certain days, and attributes of pagan religions would get the case thrown out. Spamming the board with secondary sources is not impressive.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Baal was the Canaanite sun god and god of fertility. Pagan religions of different nations worshipped the same gods, but under different names and forms. Thus Ares to the Greeks was Mars to the Romans, etc. Also, many gods from one nation might be recognized as one god in another nation, and vice versa. Thus, Baal in Canaan would be identified with Amon, Ra, the later composite deity Amon-Ra, and Osiris in Egypt. Etc.

Pagans across Europe, North Africa, the middle east, Persia, and India, recognized the Sun God as "dying" (represented by and resulting in winter) but being revived, or reborn, or reincarnated, to bring the next spring/summer cycle. The Sun God was thus considered "eternal and immortal, conquering death through revivification". And so the Sun God was also the god of death, the god of the afterlife, and the god of immortality or "eternal life".

This Sun God was said to be reborn at the time of the winter solstice. This was common throughout the pagan world, regardless of nation. Thus, Mithra (the Persian Sun God, known to Romans as Sol Invictus) was said to born on December 25th. This Sun God was also nearly universally represented by evergreen trees and plants, symbolizing his immortality and conquering of death. This Sun God was also nearly universally associated with phallus worship (because of his association with life, rebirth, and fertility). Obelisks, ziggurats, poles, trees, stone pillars, etc are all well known symbols of the phallus, used throughout the pagan world.

European pagans using evergreen trees to represent life, eternal life, during the winter solstice, is nothing less than the Germanic (and Celtic!) variation on the same theme found throughout the Ancient World: worship of the Sun God and his phallic symbolism, who was "born" on December 25th.

Nobody seems to ask themselves: "WHY December 25th? WHY evergreen trees, holly, mistletoe? How did any of that ever get associated with Jesus Christ?"

The answer is pretty simple and obvious. The cult of the Sun God (Baal, Osiris, Ra, Mithra, etc) continues on in the guise of Catholicism and Protestantism. Baal is now near-universally worshipped under the name "Jesus", represented by phallic symbols and evergreens, born on December 25th, Lord of the Afterlife where the immortal human soul goes upon death of the physical body.

Modern Christendom is largely Baal worship. He's got a new name, but he's still the same old phallic Sun God, born in the winter, worshipped with evergreens, trees, obelisks (including steeples in his temples!). What people today can't wrap their minds around is that the gods CHANGE NAMES FROM CULTURE TO CULTURE. How then can they be recognized? How did the ancients know that Baal, Osiris, Saturn, etc were all the same deity? BY THEIR ASSOCIATIONS.

EVERY pagan would INSTANTLY know which deity was being worshipped (regardless of name) if you told them you worship a dying god of immortality born at the winter solstice represented by evergreen trees, whose temples are adorned with obelisks, and whose main day of worship is the first day of the week (day of the SUN). The only thing they'd ask is "where did his temple prostitutes go?" But then they would understand, when they discovered the highly sensual, effeminate worship music led by females and soyboys so popular in his temples.

Where are the footnotes or source citations for this entire post?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Where are the footnotes or source citations for this entire post?

They are located right next to your peer reviewed published double-blind proof of claims.

[james34]

My birthday is on Christmas. Why don't you all just celebrate that and buy me a lot of gifts.
How do those who claim to partake of Christmas in a Christian way, go about doing so. Is it just nativity scenes, and Christian songs with gift giving. I ask the question, do those who celebrate the Holiday, accept Christmas bonuses( or is it only if the bonus is given in representation of a professed non pagan version of the holiday)
But I'm pretty sure most companies have a more pagan/worldly version in mind when they hand out gifts and bonuses. Iow most versions of Christmas are tied to acceptance of magic, through Santa Claus, Frosty, Rudolph etc.This worldly version embraces lying. They tell the children of a gift giver that knows when they are good or bad, asleep or awake and they will be rewarded accordingly. Also if you celebrate the day with other family/friends , do you make sure they have a nonpagan version of Christmas in mind.
How is the evergreen tree tied to the celebration of a supposed Christian holiday?

Can anyone explain how your celebration is kept pure from all of this?

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Sad to see that shadow which is already fulfilled in Christ is thought to be restored in shadow form once again in a kingdom in our future, in which Christ is already ruling in the here and now. Israel missed his coming the first time, and so many have already missed what they think is still a coming kingdom.

Borrowed from Jessie White:


What if?...

What if... there were actually two different laws given in scripture?

What if... the 1st law was light and spoken audible by God Himself?...

No other gods/No Idolatry/No Taking His Name in Vain/Honor Parents/No Murder/No Adultery/No Stealing/No False Witness/No Coveting

(Is there anything on this list that Jesus died to set us free from keeping?... No)

What if... after giving "ONLY" this law the bible said God "ADDED NO MORE". (Deut 5:22)

What if... the 2nd law was filled with symbolisms, allegories, and shadows (Circumcision/Blood of Bulls & Goats/Levitical Priesthood/Tabernacle etc.) These were given as a response after Israel worshipped the golden calf while Moses was gone up on the mountain to get the two tablets from God?

What if Jesus' life, sacrificial death, and resurrection fulfilled and elevated these symbols from their inferior "literal" application to a "spiritual" and superior application thus establishing the Torah "spiritually" through faith?

What if... the message of the apostles was NOT that we could break the literal 10 Commandments and steal, commit adutery, bow to idols, covet , and bear false witness?

What if.. the apostles preached that the sacrifice of Jesus lifted the "literal application" of the 2nd law, the "LAW THAT WAS ADDED BECAUSE OF THE TRANSGRESSION" of Israel around the golden calves? (Gal 3:19)

What if... the New Covenant is actually the 1st Law "Written in our Hearts"? (Jer 31:31 / Heb 8:10) and the 2nd law elevated so that is is applied in "spirit" and not "letter"?

What if... there were Spirit-filled, Acts 2:38, Apostolics who actually taught the 10 Commandments of God as the great constitution upon which both the Old and New "Covenants" were built?

What if... they were called "Covenant Apostolics"?

Now... This might blow your mind...

What if... God chose according to His own will to make His 7th Day Sabbath part of the 1st law "literal" and not part of the 2nd law "symbolic"?

What if... His Sabbath declares Him as the Creator and also points forward to the future prophetic Sabbath when He brings rest to His Creation in the Millennium?

What if... there were another set of days in the 2nd law of symbols and penalties that were also called Sabbaths but didn't have anything to do with the 7th Day Sabbath?

What if... these 2nd law Sabbaths were days that required special sacrifices which Jesus fulfilled?

What if... any statement by the apostles that seems to teach against law or sabbaths is actually referencing the 2nd law of penalties AND the sacrifices required on these "non-7th day" sabbaths?

WHAT IF... NOT UNDERSTANDING THESE TWO DIFFERENT LAWS ALLOWED THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH TO CHANGE THE 7TH DAY SABBATH OF GOD'S COVENANT?

Hos 4:6
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge... seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God"

[shag]

-8’ this morning.
Brrrrrr
wretched global warning

My oldest son was born on Dec 25.

We don’t have a Jesus tree, never have since I was a youngster.
My wife puts green garland and lights along our mantle, actually about a week before Thanksgiving.
The five days leading to the 25th, during the evening, we discuss bible topics for about 15 minutes, then do personal prayer requests, goals for the upcoming year etc, then have each of our 4 still at home kids lead us in prayer.
There is 6 stockings hung under our fp mantle(homemade walnut that I made start to finish from a standing blk walnut tree, I might add, took forever to dry it ). Why do we do that? Probably so our dogs don’t chew up the gifts
I don’t believe our kids even consider thinking of satan I mean santa, when they see the big socks hung up.
We stuff them about every other day w a small gift or two. Hopefully some atkeast that help their character, but then we’ll usually throw some peanut butter cups or something in there too, nothing healthy of course…
We also open gifts every couple of days 20-25th, following bible discussion and prayer. On Dec 25, if there’s a gift left, we’ll open it, following each of us taking turns reading aloud through usually Luke’s rendition surrounding the birth of Jesus.

In the future, we may alter, or cut out some of the gift giving/receiving on the 20-25th. Not sure…


It is quite interesting that “Christmas” is so popular to the world even outside of Christianity…. in example, we have neighbors that never attended any church, yet go all out in decorations, inside and outside.
-Obviously something’s off….

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Are you so sure about the early church meeting on the first day of the week?

Because the phrase "first day of the week" is barely found in the New Testament.

Here is a link with all of the times you see the phrase in question:

https://www.biblegateway.com/quickse...egin=47&end=73

There are eight references, six of which are in reference to Christ's resurrection, with the last two being from Acts and 1 Corinthians respectively.

Furthermore, when one looks at the Greek text, it is universally the same:

The text is typically given as mian sabbaton or mia ton sabbaton/sabbatou, except in Mark 16:9, which reads prote sabbaton.

In every instance in which the Greek word mia is found, it is imperative to realize the word is not an ordinal, but actually means the number #1.

As such, translating as "first" is a mistake, representing years of bias toward Sunday. Addtionally, you can see that the Greek term being translated as "week" is simply the Hebrew term shabbat transliterated.

Therefore, the correct translation for the phrase is "On one of the Sabbaths".

The only exception is Mark 16:9, which uses prote, which is an ordinal, and does mean "first". But note in the Greek, the word "day", i.e. hemera isn't present. So, it's not "first day, but rather, "first of the Sabbath".

This is an interesting post. I just want to point out that "mia" could be literally "one" but still understood as "first", especially when it is used to speak of "position", not of "quantity".

I'm just giving you an example from another romance language to show you how language can have some nuances on that respect:

In Spanish: "uno de Enero" is as valid as "primero de Enero". In fact, "uno de Enero" was a lot more common among my Spaniard friends in Spain that it was "primero de Enero". They both refer to the first day in January.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by james34

My birthday is on Christmas. Why don't you all just celebrate that and buy me a lot of gifts.
How do those who claim to partake of Christmas in a Christian way, go about doing so. Is it just nativity scenes, and Christian songs with gift giving. I ask the question, do those who celebrate the Holiday, accept Christmas bonuses( or is it only if the bonus is given in representation of a professed non pagan version of the holiday)
But I'm pretty sure most companies have a more pagan/worldly version in mind when they hand out gifts and bonuses. Iow most versions of Christmas are tied to acceptance of magic, through Santa Claus, Frosty, Rudolph etc.This worldly version embraces lying. They tell the children of a gift giver that knows when they are good or bad, asleep or awake and they will be rewarded accordingly. Also if you celebrate the day with other family/friends , do you make sure they have a nonpagan version of Christmas in mind.
How is the evergreen tree tied to the celebration of a supposed Christian holiday?

Can anyone explain how your celebration is kept pure from all of this?

Who is claiming a "precise" way to celebrate Christmas? Since Christmas is not tied to paganism, how can I be sure someone who has come to my house for dinner does not have a pagan version in mind? There is no "pagan" version of celebrating God being manifest in flesh to begin with. Thus, all of your questions really have no merit.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Amanah

Borrowed from Jessie White:


What if?...

What if... there were actually two different laws given in scripture?

What if... the 1st law was light and spoken audible by God Himself?...

No other gods/No Idolatry/No Taking His Name in Vain/Honor Parents/No Murder/No Adultery/No Stealing/No False Witness/No Coveting

(Is there anything on this list that Jesus died to set us free from keeping?... No)

What if... after giving "ONLY" this law the bible said God "ADDED NO MORE". (Deut 5:22)

What if... the 2nd law was filled with symbolisms, allegories, and shadows (Circumcision/Blood of Bulls & Goats/Levitical Priesthood/Tabernacle etc.) These were given as a response after Israel worshipped the golden calf while Moses was gone up on the mountain to get the two tablets from God?

What if Jesus' life, sacrificial death, and resurrection fulfilled and elevated these symbols from their inferior "literal" application to a "spiritual" and superior application thus establishing the Torah "spiritually" through faith?

What if... the message of the apostles was NOT that we could break the literal 10 Commandments and steal, commit adutery, bow to idols, covet , and bear false witness?

What if.. the apostles preached that the sacrifice of Jesus lifted the "literal application" of the 2nd law, the "LAW THAT WAS ADDED BECAUSE OF THE TRANSGRESSION" of Israel around the golden calves? (Gal 3:19)

What if... the New Covenant is actually the 1st Law "Written in our Hearts"? (Jer 31:31 / Heb 8:10) and the 2nd law elevated so that is is applied in "spirit" and not "letter"?

What if... there were Spirit-filled, Acts 2:38, Apostolics who actually taught the 10 Commandments of God as the great constitution upon which both the Old and New "Covenants" were built?

What if... they were called "Covenant Apostolics"?

Now... This might blow your mind...

What if... God chose according to His own will to make His 7th Day Sabbath part of the 1st law "literal" and not part of the 2nd law "symbolic"?

What if... His Sabbath declares Him as the Creator and also points forward to the future prophetic Sabbath when He brings rest to His Creation in the Millennium?

What if... there were another set of days in the 2nd law of symbols and penalties that were also called Sabbaths but didn't have anything to do with the 7th Day Sabbath?

What if... these 2nd law Sabbaths were days that required special sacrifices which Jesus fulfilled?

What if... any statement by the apostles that seems to teach against law or sabbaths is actually referencing the 2nd law of penalties AND the sacrifices required on these "non-7th day" sabbaths?

WHAT IF... NOT UNDERSTANDING THESE TWO DIFFERENT LAWS ALLOWED THE ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH TO CHANGE THE 7TH DAY SABBATH OF GOD'S COVENANT?

Hos 4:6
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge... seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God"

The only "Law" a Christian submits to is found in Romans 8:2, "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus." Thus if I walk in this Law, I will not fulfill the lust of the flesh (violate God's moral absolutes). I do not look to the 10 Commandments as my Law. However, the Law I do abide by will conform my behavior to the moral code of God.