Gino Jennings On Soul Sleep

[peter83]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Nobody is saying that the body is alive without the spirit. But you are implying ONLY the body is dead without the spirit.

Scripture speaks of the dead as being the people that are dead, not JUST their bodies.

Flesh was animated by spirit, and the result was "a living soul". The soul was not alive until flesh was joined with spirit. When spirit and flesh are separated, the PERSON dies, and is no longer a LIVING SOUL.

In 1 Cor 15, Paul treats extensively of the subject of resurrection, and not once does he mention any intermediate state of disembodied consciousness in heaven. His teaching is not JUST about the raising of the body, but of the PERSON. in fact, his point has to do with hope. He says if the dead are not raised, we have no hope and are still in our sins.

But this is untrue, IF conscious bliss in heaven in a disembodied intermediate state is correct. If dying and going to heaven is real (prior to resurrection), then a lack of resurrection wouldn't be so bad. As I stated before, the vast majority of Christians expect to die and go to heaven. Most don't even think about any actual bodily resurrection.

But Paul clearly tied our hope, and immortality, to the resurrection. This is different than what is preached across most pulpits concerning our hope. Usually, it is "go to heaven at death". Paul had ample opportunity to mention a supposed intermediate state, but did not. When people speak and teach about hope for the dead, they do not fail to mention the intermediate state if that's what they believe.

Paul also taught that the time when we would be with the Lord is the resurrection. He does not say anywhere that we would be with the Lord BEFORE resurrection. 2 Cor 5 does not speak of being with the Lord before the resurrection, that is an assumption imported into the actual text. He said his expectation and desire is to be out of the mortal body and IN THE RESURRECTION BODY. So when he then afterward speaks of being absent from the body, and present with the Lord, he is speaking of the same thing, not introducing a NEW subject.

Where does Paul EXPLICITLY teach a conscious intermediate state? Nowhere.

I agree with all axceept one thing. When a man is born is a Living soul. So the body dies but the soul never dies, because is a living soul.
Until it comes to life again in Resurrection.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by peter83

I agree with all axceept one thing. When a man is born is a Living soul. So the body dies but the soul never dies, because is a living soul.
Until it comes to life again in Resurrection.

If it "comes to life again" then it must previously be dead. Man became a living soul as a result of spirit joining to flesh. If spirit and flesh separates, then the person is no longer a "living soul".

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by peter83

I agree with all axceept one thing. When a man is born is a Living soul. So the body dies but the soul never dies, because is a living soul.
Until it comes to life again in Resurrection.

Was James an apostle? Can we learn from him? The brother of Jesus?

James 5:19-20

19Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Unfortunately most "Jesus Name People" accept the paganistic Catholic doctrine of immortal soul over the words of the apostles.

[peter83]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Was James an apostle? Can we learn from him? The brother of Jesus?

James 5:19-20

19Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; 20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Unfortunately most "Jesus Name People" accept the paganistic Catholic doctrine of immortal soul over the words of the apostles.

I dont accept any paganistic catholic doctrine of immortal soul.
I say that the Bible says clear;y that when we die the body goes back to dust and the spirit back to God,
we dont know exactly if you still have memories of life or how it is. But we sure know there is a place for the dead souls. Jesus went there and preached to the dead!
Resurrection means when your spirit come back to the body. There you will face God.
the spirit is immortal ,never dies. even after judgment nobody goes to nothingness. All live in the lake of fire (that is death) a spirit out of body and long away from God (God is ;Life)
i hope you understand the difference of a Christian and a Catholic.i dont mean any purgatpry. neither any dpctrine, i just say we (you also) dont know for sure what and how death is.

[Apostolic1ness]

when Rachel died in Genesis 35:18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died)...
In this scripture (soul) seems to carry a different definition than what some of you say it means, (body and spirit). It seems soul is defined here simply as her spirit. This is the definition used when people say the soul does not die. And others say when the body dies the soul dies. I think the scripture speaks of a soul as the individual (body and spirit) and as in this case speaks of the soul as the spirit only.

[peter83]

Originally Posted by Esaias

If it "comes to life again" then it must previously be dead. Man became a living soul as a result of spirit joining to flesh. If spirit and flesh separates, then the person is no longer a "living soul".

Yes the body is dust, and the soul? well we dont know exactly.
Live again means that the Soul be connected second time with your body. That is Resurrection. It is called "sleeping" too

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.

some verses ,just for food of thought not as supporting one or the other opinion:
"in the flesh" mean to stay alive, the soul in the body. and the depsrure is when the soul leaves the body.
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be [B]judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
19 By which also he went and preached [U]unto the spirits in prison
3 And the LORD said spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also [is] flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by peter83

Sorry but . Scripture says that the soul does dwon on "Hades" until judgement and the spirit goes back to God.
Also Jesus went on Hades.
we know from the story of the reach man and the poor Lazarus ,that both went to Hades. But Lazarus was with Abraham from the other side and the rich man was in a bad place .
After the resurrection (some people say) that the good place of Hades is now in the sky ,with God. I dont know that but have in mind:
A spirit or a soul or both if it is in the "sky" that does not mean resurrection. The Resurrection is when the spirit-soul and body are back to life!!!!!
Paul did not said "i just prefer to sleep" but ...

Phil.1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh [is] more needful for you.
So Spirit goes to God that is why Apocalypses says to the dead saints :
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.


Jesus said to the thief on the cross "today you will be with me in paradise"
why? Because Jesus and the thief went to Hades. But not in the place of damnation ,instead they went down with Abraham and all the saint souls.
(Now there are 2 possibilities . One is that the souls are at Hades and the spirits back to God, or that after resurrection of Jesus the souls at Hades went up to God. So may be the paradise after Resurrection id up in the 3d sky.
Notice that God is not in any 3rd or 7nth sky atoll!!!!!! God is Above all skies!!!!!!!!

Before the resurrection of Jesus souls went to sheol/hades that He referred to as Abraham's bosom. Since the resurrection that is no longer true. Jesus raised those in Sheol/Hades into Heaven at His resurrection.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Nobody is saying that the body is alive without the spirit. But you are implying ONLY the body is dead without the spirit.

I said what I did because MTD keeps saying the body is not what is referred to as being dead, but the soul. I showed him where the body is shown to be dead.

Scripture speaks of the dead as being the people that are dead, not JUST their bodies.

And death for the soul is departure from the body. It is a matter of defining death. Is "death" separation? Separation of what from what?

Flesh was animated by spirit, and the result was "a living soul". The soul was not alive until flesh was joined with spirit.

Actually, the souls did not EXIST before the Spirit of God breathed in.

When spirit and flesh are separated, the PERSON dies, and is no longer a LIVING SOUL.

If you're basin that on God breathing into Adam so Adam became a living soul, as if the soul is DEAD before the Spirit comes, then that does not follow through. The soul of Adam did not exist before the breath of God. To follow through correctly, you'd have to say the soul ceases to exist, if you're basing your conclusion of death o what state the soul had before Adam became a living one.

In 1 Cor 15, Paul treats extensively of the subject of resurrection, and not once does he mention any intermediate state of disembodied consciousness in heaven.

No, because he does that in 2 Cor 5. The question in 1 Cor 15 was not what happens to the soul, but rather what body do the resurrected ones come in.

His teaching is not JUST about the raising of the body, but of the PERSON.

That's what I stated, too. But it's not becuase there is no intermediate state. It's because the question was what body do resurrected saints come with.

in fact, his point has to do with hope. He says if the dead are not raised, we have no hope and are still in our sins.

But this is untrue, IF conscious bliss in heaven in a disembodied intermediate state is correct. If dying and going to heaven is real (prior to resurrection), then a lack of resurrection wouldn't be so bad. As I stated before, the vast majority of Christians expect to die and go to heaven. Most don't even think about any actual bodily resurrection.

As I said, my view states that resurrection is for the purpose of coming BACK TO EARTH to rule as Adam intended Adam to begin with. We have to go back to God's purpose for Adam before the fall to understand the restoration that salvation brings. It's restoration.

Some think they get bodies as soon as they die and go to heaven in a body of some kind. That is rife with error. Where is the CHANGE of the same body that was sown into a body that is raised with immortal nature in that belief??

But Paul clearly tied our hope, and immortality, to the resurrection. This is different than what is preached across most pulpits concerning our hope. Usually, it is "go to heaven at death". Paul had ample opportunity to mention a supposed intermediate state, but did not. When people speak and teach about hope for the dead, they do not fail to mention the intermediate state if that's what they believe.

You raise a good point, but it does not exclude the point that there would be no resurrection if there was no hope. And if there was no hope of resurrrection, there would be no imtermediate state for the soul. The soul is only in this naked intermediate state because there shall be a resurrection. Ouor hope more fully than what you related is full restoration to what Adam had and was supposed to do before his fall. That is, exist in this world in an immortal body. RESTORATION is what salvation is about. That is why the term REDEMPTION comes into play. We go back to where we originally were, in God's will, and that initial will is the target, which is man ruling this world in a physical, immortal state. We cannot separate salvation from redemption to the original ownership of God for his original intent and purpose for man.

So, the hope of redemption is to return to earth and rule it in an immortal physical body as Adam once had. And to facilitate that for all believers, there is the coming of Christ at a specific general moment so those who died before that point in time are awaiting the resurrection. There would be no awaiting if there was no resurrection to indwell an immortal physical body, again because REDEMPTION is restoration.

What do you believe is man's destination? Do you not believe it is restoration to what Adam had on earth in dominion, and not an eternal existence in heaven instead in an immortal physical body? What is the immortal physical body for? Existence in Heaven?? If so, whatever happened to ruling the world as Dam was intended to do while in the world?

Paul also taught that the time when we would be with the Lord is the resurrection. He does not say anywhere that we would be with the Lord BEFORE resurrection. 2 Cor 5 does not speak of being with the Lord before the resurrection, that is an assumption imported into the actual text.

I disagree. I got my view from studying 2 Cor 5, not trying to force my view into it.

He said his expectation and desire is to be out of the mortal body and IN THE RESURRECTION BODY. So when he then afterward speaks of being absent from the body, and present with the Lord, he is speaking of the same thing, not introducing a NEW subject.[/q

Where does Paul EXPLICITLY teach a conscious intermediate state? Nowhere.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Nobody is saying that the body is alive without the spirit. But you are implying ONLY the body is dead without the spirit.

I said what I did because MTD keeps saying the body is not what is referred to as being dead, but the soul. I showed him where the body is shown to be dead.

Scripture speaks of the dead as being the people that are dead, not JUST their bodies.

And death for the soul is departure from the body. It is a matter of defining death. Is "death" separation? Separation of what from what?

Flesh was animated by spirit, and the result was "a living soul". The soul was not alive until flesh was joined with spirit.

Actually, the souls did not EXIST before the Spirit of God breathed in.

When spirit and flesh are separated, the PERSON dies, and is no longer a LIVING SOUL.

If you're basing that on God breathing into Adam so Adam became a living soul, as if the soul is DEAD before the Spirit comes, then that does not follow through. The soul of Adam did not exist before the breath of God. To follow through correctly, you'd have to say the soul ceases to exist when we die, not sleeps, if you're basing your conclusion of death on what state the soul had before Adam became a living one.

In 1 Cor 15, Paul treats extensively of the subject of resurrection, and not once does he mention any intermediate state of disembodied consciousness in heaven.

No, because he does that in 2 Cor 5. The question in 1 Cor 15 was not what happens to the soul, but rather what body do the resurrected ones come in.

His teaching is not JUST about the raising of the body, but of the PERSON.

That's what I stated, too. But it's not because there is no intermediate state. It's because the question was what body do resurrected saints come with.

in fact, his point has to do with hope. He says if the dead are not raised, we have no hope and are still in our sins.

But this is untrue, IF conscious bliss in heaven in a disembodied intermediate state is correct. If dying and going to heaven is real (prior to resurrection), then a lack of resurrection wouldn't be so bad. As I stated before, the vast majority of Christians expect to die and go to heaven. Most don't even think about any actual bodily resurrection.

As I said, my view states that resurrection is for the purpose of coming BACK TO EARTH to rule as Adam intended Adam to begin with. We have to go back to God's purpose for Adam before the fall to understand the restoration that salvation brings. It's restoration.

Some think they get bodies as soon as they die and go to heaven in a body of some kind. That is rife with error. Where is the CHANGE of the same body that was sown into a body that is raised with immortal nature in that belief??

But Paul clearly tied our hope, and immortality, to the resurrection. This is different than what is preached across most pulpits concerning our hope. Usually, it is "go to heaven at death". Paul had ample opportunity to mention a supposed intermediate state, but did not. When people speak and teach about hope for the dead, they do not fail to mention the intermediate state if that's what they believe.

You raise a good point, but it does not exclude the point that there would be no resurrection if there was no hope. And if there was no hope of resurrection, there would be no intermediate state for the soul. The soul is only in this naked intermediate state because there shall be a resurrection. hope more fully than what you related is full restoration to what Adam had and was supposed to do before his fall. That is, exist in this world in an immortal body. RESTORATION is what salvation is about. That is why the term REDEMPTION comes into play. We go back to where we originally were, in God's will, and that initial will is the target, which is man ruling this world in a physical, immortal state. We cannot separate salvation from redemption to the original ownership of God for his original intent and purpose for man.

So, the hope of redemption is to return to earth and rule it in an immortal physical body as Adam once had. And to facilitate that for all believers, there is the coming of Christ at a specific general moment so those who died before that point in time are awaiting the resurrection. There would be no awaiting if there was no resurrection to indwell an immortal physical body, again because REDEMPTION is restoration.

What do you believe is man's destination? Do you not believe it is restoration to what Adam had on earth in dominion, and not an eternal existence in heaven instead in an immortal physical body? What is the immortal physical body for? Existence in Heaven?? If so, whatever happened to ruling the world as Adam was intended to do while in the world?

Paul also taught that the time when we would be with the Lord is the resurrection. He does not say anywhere that we would be with the Lord BEFORE resurrection. 2 Cor 5 does not speak of being with the Lord before the resurrection, that is an assumption imported into the actual text.

I disagree. I got my view from studying 2 Cor 5, not trying to force my view into it.

He said his expectation and desire is to be out of the mortal body and IN THE RESURRECTION BODY. So when he then afterward speaks of being absent from the body, and present with the Lord, he is speaking of the same thing, not introducing a NEW subject.

It is not a new subject. It is a sub-thought related to and adding more to the primary thought already stated.

Where does Paul EXPLICITLY teach a conscious intermediate state? Nowhere.

verse 8.

WHAT ABOUT THIS>>>>

2Co_12:2.. I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Paul did not know if he was out of the body and in the third heaven when he experienced what he did. If he did not know, then the idea of being outside the body IS NOT RULED OUT.

And as our brother indicated, this passage shows what you contend is not present.

Php 1:20.. According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death...
Php 1:21.. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain...
Php 1:22.. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not...
Php 1:23.. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:..
Php 1:24.. Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you...
Php 1:25.. And having this confidence, I know that I shall abideand continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith;..

This clearly shows Paul departing the body to be with Jesus.

[peter83]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Before the resurrection of Jesus souls went to sheol/hades that He referred to as Abraham's bosom. Since the resurrection that is no longer true. Jesus raised those in Sheol/Hades into Heaven at His resurrection.

αmen! Do you know ,now for example ,when we die we go up? i mean can you explain me that brother?