Billy Graham

[houston]

How do I determine my own salvation and how it came about, and the salvation of those closest to me in my congregation, and then can't figure it out outside of our assembly?
—-
Face it. You are putting people into heaven on the very basis for which they put you into hell. If the application of Billy's gospel that he preached saves, then the application of your gospel that you preach doesn't.

Wow

[houston]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Again, sola scriptura out the window, and hello your own personal Jesus.

Clear all your sins
Get born again
Just repeat a couple lines
Lines... Yeah

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Again, sola scriptura out the window, and hello your own personal Jesus.

EB, this isn't directed at you personally, but your statement gives me an opportunity to share my thoughts about something.

Sola Scriptura... it is translated, "by Scripture alone".

This is a false doctrine. It was developed by the Trinitarian Reformed churches (Calvinists). Sola scriptura means that Scripture alone is authoritative for the faith and practice of the Christian. But this is grave error and undermines all that is Apostolic Pentecostal.

Apostolics are known for something the world over... their emphasis on experiencing the baptism of the Holy Ghost and the gifts of the Holy Ghost. Those who believe in Sola Scriptura are historically Cessationists. Cessationists believe that the supernatural experiences seen in the book of Acts have ceased. That means they historically believe that the baptism of the Holy Spirit with speaking in other tongues, interpretation, prophecy, dreams, visions, discernment of spirits, miraculous healings, miracles, word of knowledge, word of wisdom, etc. have ceased... or the explain these gifts in a non-supernatural format. The believe these gifts have ceased because these gifts, namely the speaking gifts (interpretation, prophecy, word of knowledge, word of wisdom), in addition to dreams and visions, are extra-biblical "experiential" and "personal" revelations. They cast doubt and suspicion on these supernatural gifts and experiences because these experiences often challenge their interpretation of the Scriptures (Trinitarian, non-Pentecostsal).

I contend that "Sola Scriptura" is incompatible with Apostolic doctrine. For generations Apostolics have welcomed dreams, visions, tongues, interpretations, words of wisdom, words of knowledge, and prophesies. Apostolics have historically embraced discernment of spirits, spiritual warfare, casting out devils, binding and losing. Apostolics have historically believed in prayer cloths and divine healing. All of this is "extra-biblical" or "in addition to" Scripture in their experience. Many will argue, "But these things are mentioned in Scripture". Yes, but the foundation of historic Sola Scriptura is that once the cannon of Scripture was completed, these gifts ceased, leaving us with... the Scriptures alone. Hence, "Sola Scriptura".

The Reformed churches have been involved in a massive push into Evangelical Christianity, and yes, even Charismatic forms of Christianity. With them, they bring this doctrine, believing that if they can help churches focus on Scripture alone... those churches will eventually become Reformed, for that is what they desire... reform. Many have argued that in classical Pentecostal denominations that supernatural manifestations of the Spirit appear to be lacking. Services are often dead, without tongues, and without tongues, there are no interpretations. Visionary testimonies and experiences are nearly non-existent, and those who report them are viewed with suspicion.

Even Apostolic churches have been effected by it. It came in piggy backing Preterism as many Apostolics searched the Scriptures looking for a non-sensational and grounded approach to prophecy that was solidly grounded in Scripture alone. Sadly, most leading theologians who are Preterist are... Reformed. And with this subtle seeds of Reformed teaching began to pepper the landscape in Apostolic Pentecost. Many have successfully guarded against the effects of these seeds of error. However, many have embraced Sola Scriptura to the point of slowly becoming more and more critical of the Apostolic truth as it relates to dreams, visions, and the gifts of the Spirit. The end result of Sola Scriptura is a Cessationist perspective of the Christian life and Scripture.

As Apostolics, we've always welcomed the Holy Spirit's desire to provide deeper truth. We've always welcomed the Holy Spirit's desire to provide daily guidance, even supernaturally. We've welcomed the Holy Spirit's personal counsel and personal leadings in our lives.

Cessationists often accuse Charismatics and Pentecostals for having a "personal Jesus". This is because they believe one cannot have a "personal" relationship with Jesus. They believe one can only hope to experience such a personal relationship in Heaven. In the mean time, Scripture is the sole rule, guide, and Word, regarding the Christian life. There is no such thing as a "personal relationship" with Jesus in their historic paradigm. One's life and faith is based on, Scripture alone. Therefore, no feelings, personal leadings, personal convictions, exist. These are considered signs of an immature believer. However, historically in Apostolic churches, and Pentecost as a whole, feelings, hunches, personal leadings, and personal convictions have been welcomed and even embraced. Sometimes it is admitted that there is tension between these experiences and what is currently understood in the Scriptures. But that is what has brought spiritual growth. In addition, Apostolics have historically not only welcomed these experiences, but bore testimony that while these experiences might have challenged our understanding of Scripture and perhaps even God Himself in the moment, they proved to be true after all was said and done.

Therefore, Apostolics have historically been at odds with Sola Scriptura. Apostolics have also held testimony that Scripture alone cannot save, lead, or guide. One must be led of the Spirit as one reads, studies, and interprets Scripture. This is Scripture + Spirit. And this is what Sola Scriptura will always find issue with.

So, I contend that Sola Scriptura is overrated, and perhaps even dangerous. It misses the personal experiences and leadings of God and seeks to "Reform" one's faith into a model of orthodoxy that will serve to squelch and ultimately quench the Spirit, leaving one frozen in time. Sola Scriptura has a very obvious weakness. While they argue we (Pentecostals) are given to subjective personal revelations, they are given to subjective personal interpretation. What their theologians have determined the Scripture to say (largely John Calvin), is their rule of law. Reformed churches tended to adapt slowly to the abolition of slavery. They adapted slowly to women's suffrage. They adapted slowly to complementarianism in the home. They adapted slowly to putting an end to child labor. However, Christians seeking greater light brought forth new and fresh insight from Scripture. The Scriptures came alive, putting eternal value on all mankind. It brought with it the notions of human liberty being sacred and holy. Which leads us to another popular Reformed trend... Christian Reconstructionism. A Dominionist heresy embraced by numerous Reformed churches (it's leading scholars and theologians being Reformed) that advocates the subjugation of all democracy and civil authority to the Law of God (as it is interpreted by them, of course). This would revive capital punishment for sins such as adultery, homosexuality, disobedience to parents, etc. It is essentially a Christian version of the Taliban and other extremist groups who wish to impose Islamic religious law on their societies. And any honest soul can search this forum and see that Christian Reconstruction is indeed even being advocated by some on this very forum.

So, I contend that Sola Scriptura isn't entirely compatible with Apostolic doctrine. In fact, it is a Trojan horse that will undermine the liberty we have attained in the Spirit and drag us into a Calvinistic Cessationist paradigm.

[thephnxman]

His NAME is Jesus!

Originally Posted by Aquila

I was taught that the only way to "know" that you, or another, is saved is to obey the fullness of the Apostolic gospel,
and to seek Christlike integrity of life. Apostolic doctrine is blessed assurance, Jesus is mine.

I can "know" one that one isn't saved if they do not believe in Christ. If they are atheists, of another religion, new age,
or agnostic. These must be reached. Hell is their destiny unless they obey the Gospel.

Those believers who love Christ, and serve him, and seek Christlikeness under the stained glass traditions of historic
Christianity are a mixed bag. Many claim Trinitarianism, but are Oneness conceptually. By just reading the Bible, they are
Oneness in practice. There are those whose repentance was accepted by God, and as a result He has given them the Holy
Ghost. Though not baptized in Jesus name, they have experienced justification and regeneration. No, their understanding isn't
complete, but their experience is real, not because of, but in spite
of, their misunderstanding. Then there are hardline cessessionists, these are hardened reprobates, who curse the manifestation
of the Spirit. And then there are those precious childlike souls who just love Jesus. They don't even know the debate over
baptism, they just wanted to be baptized. The debate over Trinitarianism and Oneness is beyond them, they just want Jesus.
They believe in the Spirit though they never experienced it. Some will honestly admit, it kind of scares them, the supernatural
just spooks them. They are happy to hear about it, but like children, the reality of it all is too much for them. They need
to be eased into embracing it. Many have experienced justification. Many have encountered the Spirit, but they just don't
know how to let it flow.

I tell these Christians that there is so much more. I tell them that the Apostolic way will bring blessed assurance. Many cling
to their tradition because they are afraid, not because of any animosity against the truth. Many explore the Apostolic truth and
embrace it. Some, the legalism suffocates them and they are left classifying it as just rules and regulations. We often turn
them off with unbiblical impositions.

When one of these Christians die, I offer to pray that God have mercy. Why? Because their faith was incomplete. I don't put
them into Heaven, nor do I put them into Hell. I pray for them, and let it go, and I let God be God. He alone knows what is
just for these souls. And I leave it at that. Do I fault one who wants to believe that God had mercy on their grandma? Do
I insist that they relegate her to Hell? NO. That's their "belief". Ultimately, the truth, no matter what it is, will be revealed
on the great day if judgement. They don't need me insisting on their grandma's eternal torments. I will only say, there is
no assurance. Just let God be God. You obey what He has revealed to you.

I pray that helps you to understand my take on it.

The NEW gospel according to Aquila. GOT IT!

Brother Villa

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

His NAME is Jesus!



The NEW gospel according to Aquila. GOT IT!

Brother Villa

No. It's not a new gospel. It's a comparison of the historic positions of Apostolic Christianity vs. the Sola Scriptura Reformed tradition.

Sadly, some of y'all have drifted so far from what Apostolic Pentecost used to be, it sounds new to ya.

For example, the old timers used to swear by prayer cloths and casting out devils. Now these things are viewed with suspicion and are even discounted... just like we see in the Reformed tradition.

Apostolic Pentecost has always recognized the Bible as our guide and primary source of inspiration and teaching. But the Christian life is one lived in the Spirit... not the deadness of the letter.

Think about it... had our founders been Sola Scriptura... as the Oneness understanding was challenging Trinitarianism in the early 20th Century, they would have rejected it, holding to the tried and true interpretations of Scripture alone. It was the SPIRIT that was leading them into greater light by illuminating greater truth in the Word. It wasn't an academic exercise.

Sola Scriptura can often descend into a form of "biblio-idolatry" in which interpretations are clung to as the SPIRIT screams for us to see greater truth in the manifold Word of God.

Not to mention, many who hold to Sola Scriptura embrace "traditions" such as standards against beards, extreme dress codes, etc. that are not mandated in Scripture.

Apostolics need to find their fulfillment in the Spirit. Not in trying to sound reputable by acquiescing to Reformed theology, or drawing distinctions based entirely upon extreme extra-biblical legalisms.

We need a renewal that draws us into the realm of the Spirit. We need a revival of the gifts. We need to awaken to the supernatural life that is found only in living the Christian life by the Spirit.

John 4:23
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

In spirit AND in truth. Not just truth. That's not Sola Scriptura.

[Aquila]

I'll admit, I've visited Apostolic churches that were once very much "alive" and the Spirit moved with tongues and interpretation almost every service. Healings were reported regularly, visions, dreams, and supernatural encounters were shared over the table at prayer breakfasts.

I was shocked to see these churches rather quiet. Almost sleepy. Oh, they picked excellent contemporary music with chords and a beat that would get you swaying and bopping a bit. But it was all the same, three familiar songs, an old hymn, and a special that was a new song. Then offering. Then a familiar chorus or two, and the preacher approached the platform. And the sermon began. The sermon would close as the musicians began playing soft and emotional chords and the preacher would drive his point home with an emotional plea to come pray. Maybe a hand full would go up to the altar. I didn't see weeping, sobbing, men throwing themselves on the steps of the platform screaming for mercy or deliverance. No. It was really quiet. Calm. Respectable. Lifeless. Not to mention, boring. I remember people getting demons cast out of them in altar services, crowds gathered around the sinner as they pray through into a powerful baptism in the Holy Ghost with tears, snot, and tongues everywhere.

We need more... Spirit.

[thephnxman]

His NAME is Jesus!

Some folks on this forum are indicating that we (I am included) would CONDEMN
anyone that does not conform to our gospel, saying that we place ourselves in
the place of God. I, of course, deny this: for I would judge myself in the light
of scripture, and would not judge anyone worse than I judge myself (one of the
definitions for "judge" is "examine").

"For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again."

Now if I would JUSTIFY anyone that refuses the gospel that saves, would that
justify ME? If I would then justify anyone that has refused to be justified by my
gospel, am I not be placing myself in the place of God? And should I preach the
gospel that has been committed to me, and not a doctrine formed in the very
imaginations of man?

Yes. I will preach the gospel that saves: even the gospel that the Lord Jesus
committed to Peter for the Jews, and Paul unto the Gentiles.

You folks (if the shoe fits) can preach any gospel you want: and by it will you
be justified, or condemned.

Brother Villa

[Amanah]

The gospel is so simple a child can get it.

On the day of Pentecost, they repented, where baptized in Jesus' name, and were filled with the HG, evidenced by speaking in tongues. (Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Acts 10:46-48)

These are foundational truths, and without the basic foundation, it is impossible to build any further (Hebrews 6)

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Amanah

The gospel is so simple a child can get it.

On the day of Pentecost, they repented, where baptized in Jesus' name, and were filled with the HG, evidenced by speaking in tongues. (Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16, Acts 10:46-48)

These are foundational truths, and without the basic foundation, it is impossible to build any further (Hebrews 6)

Actually, we haven't been very systematic in our theology. There are core doctrines of Scripture that are of great soteriological relevance that we often ignore. For example the primary ones I'm aware of are:

1. Corporate Election (God's choice to save whosoever will enter into the body of Christ)

2. Predestination (God's predetermined glory for the church)

3. Atonement (Christ's work of satisfying the Law's condemnation for the church)

4. Propitiation (Christ's satisfying God's wrath against sin as it relates to the church)

5. Prevenient Grace (the Holy Spirit's drawing of the lost to Christ Jesus through both an inner and an outer calling)

6. Conversion (repentance & water baptism)

7. Justification (imputed righteousness received by faith at Conversion)

8. Regeneration (being born of the Spirit as a result of the baptism of the Holy Spirit)

9. Adoption (membership in God's family through the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit)

10. Sanctification (growing into Christlikeness by taking part in the divine nature through the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit)

11. Death (the cessation of physical life after which one enters the intermediate state wherein the soul is present with the Lord in Heaven awaiting resurrection & glorification)

12. Resurrection & Glorification (receiving a resurrected and glorified body fashioned perfectly after the image of Christ)

All too often we just get japlappy and cram everything into Acts 2:38 without any deeper study or reflective thought regarding the soteriological elements of what we are truly experiencing according to Scripture as it might relate to Acts 2:38.

As the Holy Spirit works to draw the sinner to salvation (Prevenient Grace), should the sinner repent of their sins and be water baptized, they experience "conversion". It is this experience that brings the individual to a state of "justification". Being "justified" (by faith) they stand before God as though they never sinned. And as a result, they are able to receive the Holy Spirit. Upon receiving the Holy Spirit they experience "regeneration" and partake in the divine nature, making them sons and daughters of God, the reality of "adoption". Then begins the process of "sanctification". And, I'll stop at sanctification, because the rest goes beyond this topic.

If a sinner has repented of their sins and has been water baptized, they are "justified" before God. Initial justification comes by faith upon repentance, nothing else. This is WHY people often receive the baptism of the Holy Ghost before water baptism. If water baptism justified anyone, it would be impossible to receive the Holy Spirit prior to water baptism. And so, we know that through repentance, one is justified before God. Water baptism, in the name of Jesus, is unto identification. Baptized in His name we are buried with Him in baptism. This allows us to "experience" the remission of sin that took place at repentance via cleansing the conscience before God.

That being said, should a repentant soul die prior to water baptism, or even immediately after water baptism, the argument can be made biblically that they died in a "justified" state.

Now, we can agree that they had yet to experience regeneration. But we cannot deny that they entered into justification.

[Amanah]

Hebrews 6
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3 And this will we do, if God permit.

***
I think the gospel is simplicity, we try to over complicate it. and Hebrews 6 tells us what the foundational beliefs are.

But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. (2 Cor 11:3)