born of water

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by shazeep

well, wadr i wonder if "led" is not the op word there, and this reinforces for me the confusion in our model. I don't mean to say that baptism is not important, but misunderstood. We have new converts--or really prospects, as most have also been confused as to what they are converting to--desiring "re-baptism" i mean please
and you say "unwritten," but it is written, and just unseen. Not connected to baptism (or salvation) because the connection is spiritual. Wadr, i hear satan laughing with delight @ your rebaptisms.

Baptism, as with repentance, is a matter of the heart. I wonder: if we asked everyone why they were baptized, if they
would answer: "Because I was told." I ask myself, "Is that the faith required for salvation? That they were baptized because
they were told, and not for "...remission of sons..."? I'm sorry to say, that the gospel that saves is not
really being preached today.

Would I rebaptize someone, today? I would sit them down, go over the essence of the gospel and ask if that is
what they believe today; then ask if that is what they believed when they were first baptized.

One Lord, one faith, one baptism. It is NOT the number of times the believer is baptized that matters most: it is
what one believes when one is baptized! It is not obedience plus faith; rather, it is faith plus obedience.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Sean

Not the water alone, my friend, but the NAME spoken over the candidate being baptized in the water is a SUPERNATURAL event.

It(water and the name, Jesus) works on our sin nature, just like using oil in the book of James is needed(and the prayer of faith) in the healing process.

Both of these events invite the miracle of God, because of our obedience to using water or oil in the process.

So the repentant sinner invoking Jesus Christ while being baptized won't do, huh? That name only has supernatural power if the the baptizer invokes it over the sinner who is being baptized.

Welcome to the Catholic Church.

[shazeep]

et al. there is also life after extreme pentecostalism

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Baptism, as with repentance, is a matter of the heart. I wonder: if we asked everyone why they were baptized, if they
would answer: "Because I was told." I ask myself, "Is that the faith required for salvation? That they were baptized because
they were told, and not for "...remission of sons..."? I'm sorry to say, that the gospel that saves is not
really being preached today.

Would I rebaptize someone, today? I would sit them down, go over the essence of the gospel and ask if that is
what they believe today; then ask if that is what they believed when they were first baptized.

One Lord, one faith, one baptism. It is NOT the number of times the believer is baptized that matters most: it is
what one believes when one is baptized! It is not obedience plus faith; rather, it is faith plus obedience.

well put, but i can only wonder what % of seekers in the Pent movement are being wooed with "every inch of skin will be stripped from you," and "count the cost." Imo, it will not matter how one holds their mouth at these baptisms.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by shazeep

: lol et al. there is also life after extreme pentecostalism
well put, but i can only wonder what % of seekers in the Pent movement are being wooed with "every inch of skin will be stripped from you," and "count the cost." Imo, it will not matter how one holds their mouth at these baptisms.

Don't worry about how others are being woo'ed, or how they hold their mouths at baptism. You believe, obey, and please the Lord.

[shazeep]

and if it pleases God for me to worry at those who suggest one might accept Christ with their mouth, what then

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Originalist

So the repentant sinner invoking Jesus Christ while being baptized won't do, huh? That name only has supernatural power if the the baptizer invokes it over the sinner who is being baptized.
Welcome to the Catholic Church.

Listen to the scripture: "For whosoever calls upon the NAME of the Lord shall be saved." Many who believe
the "Faith Gospel" read that to mean that one is saved upon believing. That's not how it should be understood.

The words "...shall be..." are a promise; even as the words found in Mk. 16:16__"He that believes and is baptized shall be saved."
So what is the Lord saying? "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him
of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? and how shall they preach, except they
be sent?" So are we sent to preach the gospel, that they may hear and believe and call on Him who hears the
prayer of a repentant heart.

Have you not heard? "The effectual prayer of a righteous man avails much." Who was Ananias? A "...disciple in
Damascus..."; perhaps the least of the disciples, who would preach the gospel to the man who was to be regarded as the
greatest among the apostles!

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Listen to the scripture: "For whosoever calls upon the NAME of the Lord shall be saved." Many who believe
the "Faith Gospel" read that to mean that one is saved upon believing. That's not how it should be understood.

The words "...shall be..." are a promise; even as the words found in Mk. 16:16__"He that believes and is baptized shall be saved."
So what is the Lord saying? "How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him
of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? and how shall they preach, except they
be sent?" So are we sent to preach the gospel, that they may hear and believe and call on Him who hears the
prayer of a repentant heart.

Have you not heard? "The effectual prayer of a righteous man avails much." Who was Ananias? A "...disciple in
Damascus..."; perhaps the least of the disciples, who would preach the gospel to the man who was to be regarded as the
greatest among the apostles!

I'm not sure if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing with me.

[Hesetmefree238]

Originally Posted by Sean

Not the water alone, my friend, but the NAME spoken over the candidate being baptized in the water is a SUPERNATURAL event.

It(water and the name, Jesus) works on our sin nature, just like using oil in the book of James is needed(and the prayer of faith) in the healing process.

Both of these events invite the miracle of God, because of our obedience to using water or oil in the process.

Sean, baptism does a lot of things, but it doesn't change the inner nature of a man. That can only be done via the effect of the operation of the Spirit of Christ. Only the Spirit can transform a person from the inside out. In water baptism we are baptized into Christ's death, buried with him in baptism, and we are to arise to walk in newness of life, however the change in the nature of a man is only accomplished through the Spirit. Yes, the Spirit can and will work through the process of baptism if there is faith in the heart of the person being baptized, however it's not the act of baptism itself that causes this change, but its the operation of the Spirit.
With that said, baptism is an ordinance of God, commanded by God, and essential for every repentant believer. Scripture tell us that it is a washing from sin (Acts 22:16), it is a burial place for the old man (Romans 6), through it we are baptized into Christ (Galatians 3:27), we take on his name (Acts 8:16), and as the Red Sea cut off Israel from Egypt, we are cut off from out past life of sin as we go through the waters of baptism in Jesus name.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by shazeep

lol and if it pleases God for me to worry at those who suggest one might accept Christ with their mouth, what then

Why would your worrying please the Lord? "Be careful for nothing; but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto the Lord."

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Originalist

I'm not sure if you are agreeing with me or disagreeing with me.

Every organization, like the Catholic Church, has a chain of command. Likewise the Body of Christ. Unlike the other organizations, the ministry is mandated to say "...thus saith the Lord...", and not voice personal opinions.

Calling on the NAME of the Lord at baptism, by the one baptized, is tantamount to baptizing oneself. Nowhere in scripture do we see that; even Saul of Tarsus, when the Lord called him, was sent to a disciple to show him the way.