Stunning Sermon On The Great Tribulation

[Truthseeker]

Oh, Israel won! And still is.

[TGBTG]

Shag, I've not been able to post lately...anyway, here goes:

As per the parable of Matt 21 being fulfilled in 70AD.

Matt 21
33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

The preterist INTERPRETATION of this parable is that Jesus came in 70AD in judgement of Israel.
However, when we consider that parable, it does NOT say the Son came to judge. It was the FATHER who came to judge the wicked husbandmen. Jesus WAS NOT speaking of his coming. In fact, Jesus himself gave us the interpretation of that parable, that is the kingdom being taken from Israel

Prophecy speaks of the coming of the Son of God.

Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven
Matt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
1 Thess 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Thus, the parable WAS NOT even speaking of the coming of the Son of God.
The parable therefore means exactly what Jesus said, that is "The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

So we know according to Jesus that the kingdom of God was taken from Israel.

My question now to ALL PRETERISTS is: Jesus SAID the kingdom will be restored to Israel (Acts 1:6-7). When when was the Kingdom restored to Israel?

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Problem with this? In Zech. 12 Israel is given a great victory!
Zech. 12:3-9

3 And in that day will I make Jerusalem a burdensome stone for all people: all that burden themselves with it shall be cut in pieces , though all the people of the earth be gathered together against it. 4 In that day, saith the LORD, I will smite every horse with astonishment, and his rider with madness: and I will open mine eyes upon the house of Judah, and will smite every horse of the people with blindness. 5 And the governors of Judah shall say in their heart, The inhabitants of Jerusalem shall be my strength in the LORD of hosts their God. 6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem. 7 The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah. 8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them. 9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

This is the opposite of what happened in 70 ad. Israel suffered a great defeat. Zechariah's prophecy is still future.

Using this as a springboard:

In Zech 12 through Zech 14, God is fighting FOR Israel. According to PRETERISM, God judged Israel in 70AD.

How can God be fighting for Israel and God judging Israel be the same event?

[shag]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Shag, I've not been able to post lately...anyway, here goes:

As per the parable of Matt 21 being fulfilled in 70AD.

Matt 21
33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

The preterist INTERPRETATION of this parable is that Jesus came in 70AD in judgement of Israel.
However, when we consider that parable, it does NOT say the Son came to judge. It was the FATHER who came to judge the wicked husbandmen. Jesus WAS NOT speaking of his coming. In fact, Jesus himself gave us the interpretation of that parable, that is the kingdom being taken from Israel

Prophecy speaks of the coming of the Son of God.

Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven
Matt 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
1 Thess 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Thus, the parable WAS NOT even speaking of the coming of the Son of God.
The parable therefore means exactly what Jesus said, that is "The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof."

So we know according to Jesus that the kingdom of God was taken from Israel.

My question now to ALL PRETERISTS is: Jesus SAID the kingdom will be restored to Israel (Acts 1:6-7). When when was the Kingdom restored to Israel?

1. I ask again to make sure I follow you, Do you believe that Matt. 21:40 was NOT fullfilled in Jesus generation, EVEN in light of the of verse 41 and 45, is that correct?

2. And while being oneness pentecostal, you base the answer of "no" (right?) atleast in part on the understanding that the "Father" can only be the HUSBANDMAN, not the Son, is that correct?
(Even in light of Jn. 6:62)




Isaiah 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

3. I ask again, do you believe God literally ride on a cloud per Isaiah 19:1?



Rev. 19 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True...

4. I ask again, Is Jesus also going to be seen riding in on a white stallion?





5. I ask again, In Matt., Jesus compares the coming of the Son of man in veangance with the flood that came and took away the sinners. Can you explain that?


If the great tribulation is a world wide future tribulation for us, then:
(Daniel 12:1, Matthew 24:21)


6. I ask again, Why did Jesus only tell those living in Judea to flee to the mountains (Matthew 24:16)?


7. I ask again, Does EVERYONE need to pray that their flight not be in winter or on the Sabbath?
Why?


8. I ask again, why did Daniel only refer to it occurring to those who were the “children of thy people”?




9. Do you believe the Kingdom Jesus preached that was near, was postponed because the jews rejected Jesus as the messiah?


10. Concerning Zech, do you believe chapter 11 to chapter 12 took a a 2000 year leap?





I will give my thoughts pertaining to Zech, in reply to what you and MD said, after establishing what your opinion is on the above questions.




Im not sure of how productive this thread is anymore...LOL


and I will also be taking a few days off myself...