The [Apostolic] Prosperity Gospel

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by Jason Badejo

Its a little different when preaching to the very poorest in society, or when preaching in thrid world countries or Islamic regimes where christians are oppressed. And thats why I am so adamantly against tithing, because it destroys the poor and lower class people. Again I say to them it makes God a lein holder and a landlord. A diety who must be approached and appeased by the giving of money. It makes salvation by corruptible things like silver and gold, rather than the precious blood of Christ. It denies the biblical theology of grace and rips the tithe out of the Mosaic law. It denies the New Testament model of eldership in the church and a plurality of bishops ALL of whom were equals (and equally to be supported as taught in 1 Timothy 5;17), denies the priesthood of the believer (thus the right to be supported by tithes), often forgets the poor, needy, widows, and orphans-OR gives only a small percentage to such causes while the lions share goes to one man, and more than anything destroys the character of God by making Him vindictive towards anyone in noncompliance after the examples of Achan, Ananias, and Saphrrira, which results in many people serving God through fear, and even destoying the faith of some for the sake of money. both the former is especially evident in basically every tithing thread in the history of AFF.

There was a prominent Pastor from Florida who used to come to these parts to preach revival for churches here. In one revival, he preached over the pulpit that if you did not have the money to pay your rent, you pay your tithes anyhow. This was over 25 years ago, but when I heard this related from my husband, who bought the tape of the sermon. I am thinking, what kind of person is someone who can take a tithe from someone else who is about to get kicked out of their home?

The message, I believe was to encourage people to have faith to trust in God even though we are living in shaky, perilous times. It was a good message except that he could have said something along the lines that if you don't have the money to pay your rent, trust, believe and praise God anyhow....not pay your tithes anyhow.

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

There was a prominent Pastor from Florida who used to come to these parts to preach revival for churches here. In one revival, he preached over the pulpit that if you did not have the money to pay your rent, you pay your tithes anyhow. This was over 25 years ago, but when I heard this related from my husband, who bought the tape of the sermon. I am thinking, what kind of person is someone who can take a tithe from someone else who is about to get kicked out of their home?

The message, I believe was to encourage people to have faith to trust in God even though we are living in shaky, perilous times. It was a good message except that he could have said something along the lines that if you don't have the money to pay your rent, trust, believe and praise God anyhow....not pay your tithes anyhow.

And where is their faith and trust that God will pay the church mortgage or their salaries if the congregants don't tithe.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Jason, you have a good grasp on the subject I think. Very balanced too, because you are not trying squeeze money from church offerings particularly.

You should consider writing a small book on the matter. I think I know a few folks who would help finance it if you are interested.

Thank you very much. I have been more than considering it, I plan to do that very thing. But its tough to find the time, I value studying and doing a family devotion, so its hard to find the time to concentrate on one thing. That was a big factor in my backing off AFF. Not the only one, because my core beliefs shifted a litlle (though I'm still oneness and believe in JN baptism). But I appreciate your comments very much. I really do try to be balanced. I want the church to be supported and thrive, I want pastor who are full time because I see first hand how difficult it is to squish private prayer, personal devotion, family devotion, personal study, and sermon preperation into a week. And then if they are married that's a big pull on their time, not to mention children. So I'm actually in favor of supported ministry a point that most people ignore. I'm not in favor of the pastors living lifes which seem to the common saint to be lifestyles of the rich and famous.

I do appreciate your kind words because I am often accused of being one thing or another or going too far on the topic, but of course mostly I am asked just to keep my beliefs to my self and not rock the boat. Needless to say I'm not goingto stand by silent while God's word and character are abused.

[Pilgrum]

Yea but, yea but, yea but, doesn't the Bible say that those that work among us are worthy of double honor. Doesn't that mean that if a two wager family manages to eek out 50,000 a year I should be able to extract, er I mean "earn" 100,000, and not have to feel guilty about it, sheesh.

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

And where is their faith and trust that God will pay the church mortgage or their salaries if the congregants don't tithe.

Good point T2W. What is preached as faith for one should be the same faith for the for the one who is doing the preaching.

[AreYouReady?]

What Brother Jason is supporting is not an impossible task. I think I posted in another thread about my neighbors, who had home church. Now most of them have gotten so old they have moved to retirement communities and the people who used to attend the neighbor's meetings have moved on to the other home churches. These home church systems are not incorporated whatsoever. That in itself has it's good points and it's difficult points. Incorporation simply means that churches are recognized by the state and has tax benefits of the state. Where this organization had it's difficult point was when they had missions, they had trouble bringing in a Mexican lady because the state did not recognize them as a viable church organization. They did get help from the state legislature and the state's federal Senator to allow her to legally immigrate here.

That being said, this church has always paid their full-time "workers" or for us it they would be called ministers. My neighbor told me that everyone understands the workers have personal needs. She said that they just don't give of their substance out in the open where everybody sees it. They go to them in private and press some money in their hands.

I was amazed that when her sister, who was a "worker", got sick with a brain tumor, the money just poured in from all over the world. She would deposit the money and make a notation beside it in her check register what the money was designated for. By the time her sister died, there was enough money for all the hospital bills to be paid for as well as a nice funeral for family and friends. There was money left over and she took that money and sent it to where there was another need in that organization. She looked up at me and told me that the only way this will ever work is for everybody to adhere to the honor system.

Her other sister, named Helen, is now 88-years-old and is living in a nursing home. The last time I visited, Helen told me that she feels very content where she is at because it is the first time in all her adult years that she ever had a place that she could call her own. She said she has moved so often, many times only staying a week somewhere, mostly staying at stranger's homes that they opened up to the workers.

So that is why I don't buy the excuse about church mortgages, utilities and paved parking lots. These people have demonstrated to me that it can be done, without greed and excess. There was always someone in their system who was willing to open their home, transport them or pay for transportation, food, clothing, medical care etc. I don't buy the excuse that if the ministers don't preach the tithe, people would not give.

The kicker for all of this is....although my neighbors looked like pentecostals and adhered to pentecostal standards, they did not even believe in the Holy Ghost filled speaking in tongues doctrine. They lived strictly by faith in Christ that He would provide. Now if they can do this without the evidence of speaking in tongues, how much more should the people who do believe in tongues be able to live without greed and excess and take care of the needy within their ranks?

[Titus2woman]

I am not sure that they would know where to start.

I love giving. I am beyond glad to be able to give as there have been so many time in my life that I had nearly nothing. However I give where the Lord impresses me to give. If the local church's needs are more than met I look for opportunities to give where a need exists. i am still viewed as a tithe payer in my local church as far as they can tell I guess because they do not understand the principle of giving at all so I am sure just try to guess about what we make and if it lines up with the weekly check.

What I do resent is that as long as I am meeting that invisible standard, it's all good. But when I have met a need elsewhere and I skimp on my check because of it I believe my pastor is offended. That annoys the dog out of me. Many times I've though of telling him outright "Hey I paid so and so's rent so the check is going to be short this week"... but I just can't find a delicate way to broach it with him.... and really WHY should I have to? Is my giving not between me and God?

[AreYouReady?]

Your giving is supposed to be only between you and God.

[AreYouReady?]

Perhaps, if it were me, I would wait until the Pastor brings it up, then you can explain to him that you are a cheerful giver, not a tithe payer. Explain the difference and then tell him that sometimes the giving goes to someone who has greater need.

You know, that won't roll over too well.....

[bbyrd009]

yes, that should illustrate the deficiency in the model pretty quickly, lol.