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[Aquila]

I'm just asking. Do we see the same spiritual experiences in Voodoo and pagan cults? Yes or no? How can one be SURE that they're not in error?

[Sam]

Originally Posted by UnTraditional

...You are accusing tongues of being voodoo. To me, that is borderline blasphemy of the Holy Ghost. I would be very careful of not crossing that line.

yeppers


"Speaking with tongues" is seen among many pagan religions. It was part of the pagan religions of Corinth. But, just because speaking with tongues happens in pagan religions or devil worship does not mean all speaking with tongues is demonic.

Only one time is it recorded in the New Testament that hearers understood what speakers in tongues were saying. That is in Acts 2 where it is recorded that about 12-15 languages/tongues are understood by the hearers. There were Jews there from the whole known world. Other places where it is recorded or implied that speaking with tongues occurred there is no mention of anyone understanding what was said.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Sam

yeppers


"Speaking with tongues" is seen among many pagan religions. It was part of the pagan religions of Corinth. But, just because speaking with tongues happens in pagan religions or devil worship does not mean all speaking with tongues is demonic.

I agree. Not all speaking in tongues is demonic. However, how would one know if they were filled with the Holy Spirit or a demonic spirit? For example, the first church I attended was DEEPLY involved with the "magic hair" doctrine (a pagan doctrine) and EXRTEMELY legalistic. Like I said, I remember the women being whipped up into a frenzy and letting their hair loose, flailing ecstatically to "unleash the power". Others let their hair loose to fall on children to pray blessings and protection. Others dropped their hair over the sick and infirm. All was to "unleash the power". I remember the voice boomintg over the sound system, "Unleash the power! You've got power! You've got it! You've got it! You've got it!" Sadly... Jesus wasn't invoked once that I can remember. I was just "freaked out". How would I know if I received the REAL Holy Spirit? I ask, because I certainly want the real thing. And I'm sure anyone in Pentecost would agree that they want the real thing too.

Only one time is it recorded in the New Testament that hearers understood what speakers in tongues were saying. That is in Acts 2 where it is recorded that about 12-15 languages/tongues are understood by the hearers. There were Jews there from the whole known world. Other places where it is recorded or implied that speaking with tongues occurred there is no mention of anyone understanding what was said.

I know there are verses where it states that they spoke in tongues "and prophesied" or "magnified God".

Acts 10:46
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Acts 19:6
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

What if this means that those speaking did prophesy and magnify God in a human language unknown to them as the Apostles did at Pentecost?

Acts 2:11
Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.

This could imply that tongues were essentially used the same way (in at least these instances ) as they were at Pentecost (the unlocking of human languages).

Lastly, remember, we're commanded not to pray as the heathen (pagans) do...

Matthew 6:7 (King James Version)
7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen (Pagans) do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

The words are "vain repetition" or "meaningless repetition". English speakers tend to focus on the word "meaningless," because we use this word in a euphemistic way. That is not the intent of the words here. The phrase means what is being spoken is:

1 Meaningless. In other words, they are not really saying anything. It is just a noise: in fact, the Greek "word" here is not even a word. It's what we call an onomatapoiea. It is a sound, like saying "The fan went SWISHHH." Specifically, it is "Bata."

2 Repetitious. Over and over again.

This would mean that Jesus is condemning pagan jibberish. If this is what Jesus meant... how do we distinguish what we do from the pagan practice?

[Orthodoxy]

If we really needed to be concerned about "false tongues," don't you think Paul would have mentioned it in at least one of his epistles? Especially the epistle to the deviant Corinthians.

But no, in 1 Cor. 14 he says, "Now I want you all to speak in tongues," and "Do not forbid speaking in tongues." Nowhere does he say, "Be on your guard against pagan tongues."

This book from Sam Storms is really helpful on this issue.

[Orthodoxy]

Originally Posted by onefaith2

Why do you believe Jesus was the Son prior to Bethlehem? John calls him the Word on several occasions.

John 17:5

5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Orthodoxy

If we really needed to be concerned about "false tongues," don't you think Paul would have mentioned it in at least one of his epistles? Especially the epistle to the deviant Corinthians.

But no, in 1 Cor. 14 he says, "Now I want you all to speak in tongues," and "Do not forbid speaking in tongues." Nowhere does he say, "Be on your guard against pagan tongues."

This book from Sam Storms is really helpful on this issue.

The video from John MacArthur addresses this. If the Epistle is looked at another way, it's specifically addressing pagan-like tongues among the Corinthians.

[Orthodoxy]

Originally Posted by Aquila

The video from Douglas MacArthur addresses this. If the Epistle is looked at another way, it's specifically addressing pagan-like tongues among the Corinthians.

I know, I've listened to his entire "Charismatic Chaos" audio series. I think he is way off in his interpretation of 1 Cor. 13 and 14.

And I usually really like John MacArthur.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Orthodoxy

If we really needed to be concerned about "false tongues," don't you think Paul would have mentioned it in at least one of his epistles? Especially the epistle to the deviant Corinthians.

But no, in 1 Cor. 14 he says, "Now I want you all to speak in tongues," and "Do not forbid speaking in tongues." Nowhere does he say, "Be on your guard against pagan tongues."

This book from Sam Storms is really helpful on this issue.

When Paul states that he wants them all to speak in tongues, first we understand that Paul is speaking about true tongues that are interpreted and edify the body of Christ. Second, Paul is using a hyberbole. It's like when Paul stated that he would have every man be as he was (celibate). Paul was comparing the corrupt tongues that the Corinthians were using to the true gift. Paul would rather have all of them have the true gift, but as stated in I Corinthians 12, not all do.

When Paul instructed them not to forbid speaking in tongues, definitely this would be in regards to the true gift. However, Paul had already addressed how their pagan practice of "self edifying tongues" wasn't of value to the body. So Paul regulated the use of the true gift in the church, but condemned the false saying that he'd rather that they prophesy.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Orthodoxy

You mean John MacArthur. I know, I've listened to his entire "Charismatic Chaos" audio series. I think he is way off in his interpretation of 1 Cor. 13 and 14.

Yes, "John MacArthur". lol My fingers go on autopilot sometimes. lol

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Orthodoxy

John 17:5

5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

We might not like it... but it says what it says.

I'd add...

Psalm 2:12
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Psalm 110:1
1The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Hebrews 1:7-12 (King James Version)
7And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
10And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
12And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.