Faith Without Works... - Page 13

Socialite · #**121** 02-10-2011, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Well, I think that we probably do agree. I think our argument is really coming from a "teacher's" point of view - we want to make sure it is understood that genuine and living faith produces good works and that is what James is talking about.

I'm suspicious when we "want to make sure" others know works are involved.

We can't trust God and the work of grace in people's hearts. And when we are so "wanting to be sure" that no one is getting away with anything, we too closely resemble the elder brother. That scares me. And that is me quite often.

And when I'm holding a brother accountable, I'm not focusing on their sin (that only breeds self-righteousness and the propensity to pretend). Our calling is to "stir up one another to love and good deeds" (remind one another of the riches they possess in Christ), not fix one another." (Tullian)

Many people think we can perform here on earth, and then somehow earn/merit God's approval for salvation in the end. That's not grace. We cannot give anything to God that would obligate a return on his part.

Pressing-On · #**122** 02-10-2011, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

But everyone believes that.That is what I told you yesterday. It's erroneous that those that say we are saved by faith not works believe faith won't produce good works

Okay, we have established that "good" faith inherently causes one to produce good works. That is the point of James.

That doesn't negate the fact that there are people who are calling their "bad" faith "good". The "don't judge me" crowd. It just means that they don't understand they do not have the faith that James is speaking of. I think that is really the issue.

Pressing-On · #**123** 02-10-2011, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socialite

I'm suspicious when we "want to make sure" others know works are involved.

We can't trust God and the work of grace in people's hearts. And when we are so "wanting to be sure" that no one is getting away with anything, we too closely resemble the elder brother. That scares me. And that is me quite often.

And when I'm holding a brother accountable, I'm not focusing on their sin (that only breeds self-righteousness and the propensity to pretend). Our calling is to "stir up one another to love and good deeds" (remind one another of the riches they possess in Christ), not fix one another." (Tullian)

Many people think we can perform here on earth, and then somehow earn/merit God's approval for salvation in the end. That's not grace. We cannot give anything to God that would obligate a return on his part.

When we speak of "works", my mind is not thinking of hair/skirt length/laws. It is thinking of normal Christian deeds - charitable acts. The fig tree bearing good fruit. Things that become normative because we believe and trust in God. Our respect for Him and His Word.

Socialite · #**124** 02-10-2011, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Okay, we have established that "good" faith inherently causes one to produce good works. That is the point of James.

That doesn't negate the fact that there are people who are calling their "bad" faith "good". The "don't judge me" crowd. It just means that they don't understand they do not have the faith that James is speaking of. I think that is really the issue.

It's understanding we are not justified by our works.

Our good faith produces good works. We are justified by faith -- even before any works (ironically, Paul even refers to circumcision as a work).

If it's on my works, we are back to square 1 -- and it's no longer grace.

Our ultimate obedience is to trusting, relying fully on, God's salvation and work done for me on the Cross. That's the Gospel!!

Exhort and encourage one another in good works -- because you are children of Faith. But getting this backwards perverts grace about the same as a lawless one. (Lawless one being the younger brother, Law-obsessed one being the elder brother)

Praxeas · #**125** 02-10-2011, 06:21 PM

Some see a contradiction between Paul and James on the teaching of justification. Paul emphatically taught that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law while James argued that a man is justified by faith and works (James 2:14-26). Luther is such an individual who saw the two prophets' teachings to be in opposition. Insisting that Paul's view was correct, Luther belittled James's epistle, calling it an 'epistle of straw.' Such an approach to the two authors is not necessary. When the literary context of each other is examined it can be demonstrated that there is no contradiction. The key to understanding these two seemingly contradictory authors is to understand how each uses the terms justified, faith, and works. These words must be defined by their respective contexts.

PAUL	JAMES
Faith = genuine faith and reliance upon God for salvation.	Faith = mental assent that could fail to affect one’s actions.
Works = works apart from faith that one believes are able to, or help save him.	Works = works that can only be done through faith, which attest to genuine faith.
Justified = declared righteous by God because of your trust in Him for salvation.	because of your trust in Him for salvation. Justified = shown to be righteous as evidenced by your actions.14

Paul emphasized that we are saved by faith in Jesus, and not by our good works. James emphasized that the kind of faith that results in salvation will necessarily produce works that show evidence of that faith. Paul was concerned about people adding anything to faith that they believe is meritous for their salvation. James was concerned about people professing to have faith which is not really faith at all, but rather a lifeless mental-assent to Christ. It seems that James was attacking a distortion of Paul's teaching on justification, wherein faith is some dead orthodoxy with no corresponding behavioral changes. Even Paul found it necessary to fight against this distortion of his teaching on justification (Romans 3:8; 6:1, 15). James pointed out that if a person has genuine salvific faith, works will follow after him showing evidence of that faith. Abraham really did believe God, and his works evidenced that fact. If Abraham would have refused to offer Isaac upon the altar, it would have demonstrated a lack of faith in God's promises to him (James 2:21-24).

Socialite · #**126** 02-10-2011, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

When we speak of "works", my mind is not thinking of hair/skirt length/laws. It is thinking of normal Christian deeds - charitable acts. The fig tree bearing good fruit. Things that become normative because we believe and trust in God. Our respect for Him and His Word.

None of those things save us.

But those are things that a redeemed person should do.

Interestingly enough, we need to be encouraged and "provoked" to good works. We do this, not by saying "If you don't do this, you aren't saved," but by pointing each other back to the cross, and saying "Because He did this, we should do this." We get the opportunity to reflect grace, to show a portrait of what grace looked like for us.

Pressing-On · #**127** 02-10-2011, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socialite

None of those things save us.

But those are things that a redeemed person should do.

Interestingly enough, we need to be encouraged and "provoked" to good works. We do this, not by saying "If you don't do this, you aren't saved," but by pointing each other back to the cross, and saying "Because He did this, we should do this." We get the opportunity to reflect grace, to show a portrait of what grace looked like for us.

Yes, it is part of our faith.

Socialite · #**128** 02-10-2011, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Yes, it is part of our faith.

Sure, PO.

But hopefully you can understand why I'm contending for us to see faith differently. It supersedes our good works, and those good works are not the basis of our righteousness.

jfrog · #**129** 02-10-2011, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I don't think everyone agrees with that.

This is simply not true. He obeyed God and left the Ur of Chaldees.

Two things.
1. James doesn't describe him leaving Ur as being an act of Faith that justified him. This doesn't mean it wasn't, but it means that in the context of James we should talk specifically about the work that James says justified Abraham and for that my argument stands because it is clear that Abraham had living Faith before he did that act.

2. There will always be a first Work that justifies our faith. However, for a person to ever do that first work they must have living faith.

Pressing-On · #**130** 02-10-2011, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socialite

Sure, PO.

But hopefully you can understand why I'm contending for us to see faith differently. It supersedes our good works, and those good works are not the basis of our righteousness.

I think that my faith includes my obedience and cannot be separated and it can't be relegated to something that I earn, it is who I am. It's that tightly woven.

Okay, I'm done for today. Have a good one!