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  #121  
Old 01-27-2011, 06:05 PM
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A.W. Bowman A.W. Bowman is offline
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Re: The Results Of My Poll Are Shocking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
And if its confusing to say Jesus is the Father why is it not confusing for us to say Jesus is God? After all Jesus is the SON OF GOD. Should we now downplay that he is God because there are distinctions between God and his Son?

Why not just teach all the word? There will always be the need to then rightly divide it. That is the labor a Bible Teacher signs onto. Its not always easy.
In one OP church the pastor plainly stated that he did not want to hear anyone expressing any views on the Bible or doctrine other than what was presented from the pulpit, because the sharing of such individual view points and ideas just creates confusion. And, of course, as we all know, confusion is of the devil.

As was pointed out elsewhere on this thread, if the men of the early 1900's had this same mind set, we would all be Trinitarians today.
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  #122  
Old 01-27-2011, 06:06 PM
TGBTG TGBTG is offline
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Re: The Results Of My Poll Are Shocking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nina View Post
Why doesn't Jesus know when He's coming again?
Well, only the Father knows the time of his return. Now, if you say Jesus knows the time of his return, then you'd be inadvertently saying Jesus is the Father.

So does Jesus know the time of his return??
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  #123  
Old 01-27-2011, 06:06 PM
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Re: The Results Of My Poll Are Shocking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
I have not seen your poll. You said you did not vote on mine didnt you?
No but Im not the one running around declaring this place is anti-Oneness and OPs are Apathetic because people didn't vote
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Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #124  
Old 01-27-2011, 06:07 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: The Results Of My Poll Are Shocking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
I never made any such statement or implied that because we believe Jesus is the Father there are Nestorian Churches.
I also did not mention "Nestorian churches"...Im talking about individuals that claim to be Oneness and explain their theology in a way that sounds Nestorian
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #125  
Old 01-27-2011, 06:08 PM
TGBTG TGBTG is offline
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Re: The Results Of My Poll Are Shocking

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.W. Bowman View Post
In one OP church the pastor plainly stated that he did not want to hear anyone expressing any views on the Bible or doctrine other than what was presented from the pulpit, because the sharing of such individual view points and ideas just creates confusion. And, of course, as we all know, confusion is of the devil.

As was pointed out elsewhere on this thread, if the men of the early 1900's had this same mind set, we would all be Trinitarians today.
That means the individuals in that church will never grow. That will be the end result. Well, so much for II Tim 2:15
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  #126  
Old 01-27-2011, 06:20 PM
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Fiyahstarter Fiyahstarter is offline
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Re: The Results Of My Poll Are Shocking

One year for Father's Day Sunday I prepared a Slide presentation that was shown to the congregation in honor of our fathers. It was a bunch of pictures of all of our fathers sharing time with their kids from years past. It was a lot of fun to see the congregants' faces and to hear all of the ooohs, aaaaahs, and laughs as we remembered how we all looked in our youth.

Then, on a serious note, the very last slide was a picture of Jesus with the caption under it "Father of Us All".
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  #127  
Old 01-27-2011, 06:24 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: The Results Of My Poll Are Shocking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiyahstarter View Post
One year for Father's Day Sunday I prepared a Slide presentation that was shown to the congregation in honor of our fathers. It was a bunch of pictures of all of our fathers sharing time with their kids from years past. It was a lot of fun to see the congregants' faces and to hear all of the ooohs, aaaaahs, and laughs as we remembered how we all looked in our youth.

Then, on a serious note, the very last slide was a picture of Jesus with the caption under it "Father of Us All".
A picture of the Son you mean?
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #128  
Old 01-27-2011, 06:31 PM
TGBTG TGBTG is offline
Jesus is the only Lord God


 
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Re: The Results Of My Poll Are Shocking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiyahstarter View Post
One year for Father's Day Sunday I prepared a Slide presentation that was shown to the congregation in honor of our fathers. It was a bunch of pictures of all of our fathers sharing time with their kids from years past. It was a lot of fun to see the congregants' faces and to hear all of the ooohs, aaaaahs, and laughs as we remembered how we all looked in our youth.

Then, on a serious note, the very last slide was a picture of Jesus with the caption under it "Father of Us All".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
A picture of the Son you mean?
Well, did not Jesus say he is our Father?
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  #129  
Old 01-27-2011, 06:40 PM
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rgcraig rgcraig is offline
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Re: The Results Of My Poll Are Shocking

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
Oneness scholars? Which one pray tell? The only one who was allowed as a "scholar" in my thread was David Bernard and he says the same thing I do that Jesus is God the Father. As far as the "rank and file" they were ALL united in this, that Jesus is God the Father until just a few years ago.

But please dont turn this thread into another explanational session and get it buried down in "Godhead debate".
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  #130  
Old 01-27-2011, 06:49 PM
Sabby Sabby is offline
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Re: The Results Of My Poll Are Shocking

Quote:
Originally Posted by A.W. Bowman View Post
Then, as I have pointed out many times, even here on AFF, I think, there is not now, there has never has been, and there will never be a thing called the Godhead. Like the terms Trinity, and rapture, it simply does not exist in any biblical language, that is why a discussion (debate) concerning it can result in a rational conclusion. The term Trinity means a lot of different things to a lot of different people, just as the term 'Oneness' does. The term 'rapture' is a little easier to grasp because it is based on a single verse, 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

The term 'Godhead', however was created by a Greek/English translator(s?) and used to convey the meanings of three different Greek words, expressing three different aspects of God's deity in a single, poorly defined English term for use in the KJV Bible.

The effective result is that one can take any position they desire on what the Godhead means/represents and be 'right', while at the same time that, as well as all other dogmatic positions, are indefensible. It is all smoke and mirrors. There are no gods in the Godhead, not even one!

We then get down to the bottom line. Concerning the one God and His deity, no one can adequately define nor explain God and the deity He posses. It is God alone who defines Himself, not man. His very nature, composition, attributes, elements of existence and manner and modes of relationship are all beyond our powers of comprehension.

Even so, can we come to 'know Him"? The answer is yes, to the extent that we can understand the terms He uses to describe/reveal Himself to mankind in the scriptures and through our personal experience of Him - in terms of human attributes (think, sleep, hands, arms, anger, love, etc.). However, while we continue to seek His 'face', we are assured that one day we shall come to know Him as He actually is. (1 Corinthians 13:12)

In the mean time we continue to argue over the unknowable, creating religious divisions over subjective experiences that are unique to each individual, with precepts and concepts of who and what God is based on our individual ability to discern the English, Greek, and Hebrew descriptions of a God that cannot be discerned by any of the five senses of man. Yet, we often exult ourselves in our knowledge and wisdom, while judging other as not worthy of heaven over their failure to perceive and/or accept our point of view (yours, mine, someone ease's, or some group's mind set) concerning 'truth'.

Every discussion concerning the 'Godhead' will sooner or later find its final argument based on a false premise. Any teaching concerning God and/or His nature that contains any error (however slight), is by definition, a false doctrine. And, there goes our unique claim on having 'the truth' and everyone else having false doctrines.

Spiritual pride is a deadly thing.

-------------------------------------------

`But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument,"' Alice
objected.

`When _I_ use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful
tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor
less.'

`The question is,' said Alice, `whether you CAN make words mean
so many different things.'

`The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master -
- that's all.'

Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute
Humpty Dumpty began again. `They've a temper, some of them --
particularly verbs, they're the proudest -- adjectives you can do
anything with, but not verbs -- however, _I_ can manage the whole
of them! Impenetrability! That's what _I_ say!'

`Would you tell me, please,' said Alice `what that means?`

`Now you talk like a reasonable child,' said Humpty Dumpty,
looking very much pleased. `I meant by "impenetrability" that
we've had enough of that subject, and it would be just as well
if you'd mention what you mean to do next, as I suppose you don't
mean to stop here all the rest of your life.'

`That's a great deal to make one word mean,' Alice said in a
thoughtful tone.

`When I make a word do a lot of work like that,' said Humpty
Dumpty, `I always pay it extra.'

`Oh!' said Alice. She was too much puzzled to make any other
remark.

`Ah, you should see `em come round me of a Saturday night,'
Humpty Dumpty went on, wagging his head gravely from side to
side: `for to get their wages, you know.'

THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS by LEWIS CARROLL
The term 'Godhead', however was created by a Greek/English translator(s?) and used to convey the meanings of three different Greek words, expressing three different aspects of God's deity in a single, poorly defined English term for use in the KJV Bible.

The effective result is that one can take any position they desire on what the Godhead means/represents and be 'right', while at the same time that, as well as all other dogmatic positions, are indefensible. It is all smoke and mirrors. There are no gods in the Godhead, not even one!


Thanks for this explanation of the word. You are right on in that both trini's and op's use the same scripture to justify their positions. In oneness pentecost, we have assumed that the godhead naturally defines the ONE God in the numerical singular aspect of our understanding.
After all, we identify ourselves as "one God" believers. All the while we misunderstand the multi-faceted God we serve while claiming to know every detail. Sometimes we speak and act as if we understand it all and actually have the God of the universe all figured out. The Word in flesh IS a great mystery. How it happened and the particulars are really beyond human comprehension. Though we pigeon-hole the godhead into oneness "sound bites", it is never quite that simple. (I will now default to Deut 6:4).


"Oh precious mystery, Blessed Lamb of Calvary. And now I know thou art the great I AM"
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