Twitter-TF Tenney at Jentezn Franklin's 2morrow!

[POWERUP]

I agree Mike. Along with a lot of other reasons, that was the last stroke for me. One
day I walked into my dads office and said Dad............You got a minute? Of course he
did.

He asked whats up? I said, I am a liar!!!!!!!!!!!! He just looked at me, and said why
you say that?

I carefully laid the affirmation statement on his desk. He said. OOOOHHHHH. I see.

I said no matter how you pluck it, skin it, grow it, or plant it. It is a lie!

So yes, if your part of the troop, go by the rules. NO matter what everyone else
is doing.

[POWERUP]

You do feel trapped. But you have to do what you feel like God is wanting you to do. I still get
along with the DS and the Board member of the section I was in here in MS.

Seen them both the other night at the hospital where we went to pray for my old Pastor. Yep,
my wife standing there in pants and looking as Gorgeous as ever. We stood there and talked
about messages we had preached of late. Swapped notes and thoughts. No joke.

I felt no bad vibes from either of them. 2 great preachers.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by notofworks

But let's face it, Michael, most guys know, if they leave, they'll lose everything, most likely. They'll be beaten to death by district boards, even general boards. It's a scary thing to do. I had a very broken and well-known pastor say to me on the phone, "I wish I could do what you're doing." I was aggravated with him and felt sorry for him at the same time.

NOW, it took me several years to leave, so I understand the dilemma. But eventually, you just gotta man up and do it, or continue to live in misery.

But, an ethical man will either play by the rules, or leave the club - plain and simple.

I know that may sound very self-righteous, and I apologize if it does, but courage is not the absence of fear, it's doing what you have to do even though you're afraid.

I know that there are some gray areas on the UPC, and you can play in those areas and not lose your ethics, but there are certain things that are black and white. If a person has a fellowship card, in essence, what they're saying is "I agree to live by these rules." If one can't live by the rules, the ethical thing to do is leave.

And, that is when you find out who your true friends are!

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by Mr. Steinway

But..what if you are neck deep with UPCI family and friends, and you want to change it from the inside? Is civil disobedience warranted if you think the org is stuck in a rut?

No, it's not warranted, in my opinion.

How is my having a TV going to change the organization from the inside out? How is going to preach for non-UPC guys who are under question from the mothership going to change the organization? It's only going to create more strife between those who want to change and those who don't.

I live in America, and I love America. There are things I do not like about America, but I choose to live here. So, as long as I live here, I pay my taxes, obey the law, and still get choked up when I hear the Star Spangled Banner at a football game.

I may not like to pay taxes, but my not paying taxes is not going to change America, it's going to change me from being a man of integrity.

Make sense? It's just my humble opinion.......

[Melody]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

No, it's not warranted, in my opinion.

How is my having a TV going to change the organization from the inside out? How is going to preach for non-UPC guys who are under question from the mothership going to change the organization? It's only going to create more strife between those who want to change and those who don't.

I live in America, and I love America. There are things I do not like about America, but I choose to live here. So, as long as I live here, I pay my taxes, obey the law, and still get choked up when I hear the Star Spangled Banner at a football game.

I may not like to pay taxes, but my not paying taxes is not going to change America, it's going to change me from being a man of integrity.

Make sense? It's just my humble opinion.......

agreed

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

NOW, it took me several years to leave, so I understand the dilemma. But eventually, you just gotta man up and do it, or continue to live in misery.

But, an ethical man will either play by the rules, or leave the club - plain and simple.

I know that may sound very self-righteous, and I apologize if it does, but courage is not the absence of fear, it's doing what you have to do even though you're afraid.

I know that there are some gray areas on the UPC, and you can play in those areas and not lose your ethics, but there are certain things that are black and white. If a person has a fellowship card, in essence, what they're saying is "I agree to live by these rules." If one can't live by the rules, the ethical thing to do is leave.

And, that is when you find out who your true friends are!

Yep, I totally agree. I think I had larger issues than.....wait, what am I saying; I KNOW had larger issues than just what was written in the affirmation statement. Our issue was grace, not so much the standards. That's ultimately why I mailed my card back. It felt like fire in my pocket.

[DAII]

Originally Posted by Melody

by whose standard?
it is part of an organization he is apart of and fellowships with,
he signs an affirmation statement each year stating he will support it.

If I was guess he probably helped MAKE the rules, but I am guessing there.

Apples and oranges .... the AS is an affirmation of the Fundamental Doctrine and Holiness article ....

Notifying or not notifying a local pastor or district is part of the ministerial ethics code .... which at times is codified ... see manual and ... especially in some districts ... and at times a matter of nepotism.

Guys like NAU, a good fella like TFT, played by different rules .... He'd come into the 92cd street church his dad once pastored ... would conduct business there without even notifying the DS or board ... beholden to their own set of rules and expectations.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

I think that it is funny that you keep using the word-for-word thing....I have no idead what to say about that. If it is word for word I would say that is shaky but whatever. I am sure that accusations of using word-for-word oulines have been made about preachers before. I think that would be hard to prove one way or another. I still think that if someone gets upset about another person using or copying their message in wholly that they are just totally insecure. Even if the Mr. Original gets up set they need to let it go but they might not because of their insecurities. Does u understand what I am saying?

No one has referred to our even made the subject out of the person who is being plagiarized. You've done so repeatedly. Let's try to be a little more monolithic in this discussion -- we are talking the ethics of Person A "stealing sermons" and for some reason not feeling they should give credit as is reasonable. Capeche?

[Jack Shephard]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

No one has referred to our even made the subject out of the person who is being plagiarized. You've done so repeatedly. Let's try to be a little more monolithic in this discussion -- we are talking the ethics of Person A "stealing sermons" and for some reason not feeling they should give credit as is reasonable. Capeche?

Seriously you are wasting both of our time trying to talk me into changing my mind. It is not going to happen. If you are going to try and make an argument for someone stealing sermons or JF stealing sermons then name your sources since you are so intent on giving honor to the Mr. Originals. Seriously the only thing I read on your posts are that people claim JF has stolen messages in some form or another. Since this is an Apostolic forum made up of UPC people and none UPC people I have to believe that your sources are UPC or close to it. So any reference I have made to UPC or other preachers being insecure is based on your sources being in the UPC or something similar.

You might be talking about the ethics of someone stealing a sermon and I am telling you that I see no ethical issues with using a title, a thought, or even some word-for-word usage. I have made issue with someone using a specific personal story from the original person as their own...that is flat out lying. That is an ethical issue. AGAIN if you think that there is an ethical issue with it that is ok. I think that preachers that cry 'Ethics!!' when someone uses a sermon that they put together is being petty and mostlikely is a person that is insecure. We will never see eye to eye on this. I am cool with it cause it is just our opinions. No one will miss or make heaven based on using another persons sermons. If you find yourself in a position where you are hearing a repeated sermon the get up and leave if you think that brings the persons ethics to question in your mind. We are talking sermons not books, or anything that is copywritten or trademarked. I like you but I think you are trying to make an arguement where one shouldn't be. Grasping at straws to voice your opinion....IMO.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by JTULLOCK

Seriously you are wasting both of our time trying to talk me into changing my mind. It is not going to happen. If you are going to try and make an argument for someone stealing sermons or JF stealing sermons then name your sources since you are so intent on giving honor to the Mr. Originals. Seriously the only thing I read on your posts are that people claim JF has stolen messages in some form or another. Since this is an Apostolic forum made up of UPC people and none UPC people I have to believe that your sources are UPC or close to it. So any reference I have made to UPC or other preachers being insecure is based on your sources being in the UPC or something similar.

You might be talking about the ethics of someone stealing a sermon and I am telling you that I see no ethical issues with using a title, a thought, or even some word-for-word usage. I have made issue with someone using a specific personal story from the original person as their own...that is flat out lying. That is an ethical issue. AGAIN if you think that there is an ethical issue with it that is ok. I think that preachers that cry 'Ethics!!' when someone uses a sermon that they put together is being petty and mostlikely is a person that is insecure. We will never see eye to eye on this. I am cool with it cause it is just our opinions. No one will miss or make heaven based on using another persons sermons. If you find yourself in a position where you are hearing a repeated sermon the get up and leave if you think that brings the persons ethics to question in your mind. We are talking sermons not books, or anything that is copywritten or trademarked. I like you but I think you are trying to make an arguement where one shouldn't be. Grasping at straws to voice your opinion....IMO.

Enough said. Have a good day.

You and I may never see eye to eye but I was trying to encourage and welcome you to the majority opinion on ethics. You refuse and insist on your own personal feelings.

Grasping at straws? Forcing an argument? Not to be immodest about it, but I think I pretty well made a good argument. For the umpteenth time get JF and any other of your favorite preachers out of your mind for a second, and talk about ministerial ethics and plagiarism as its own subject, which is what our discussion became. There was no "grasping" here. I thought it was a legit discussion.

Anyhow... have a good day.