I dont think theres anything wrong with "open toed" shoes. Its not biblical. But the Bible does give authority to the minstry to use their own judgement. That is Biblical. Dont like it....go to another church. If it can be backed up with a Biblical "precept or principal" thats different.
But not everyone has that option. If you don't like it and try to go to another church, they may say that you have a bad spirit or are rebellious. They may not even accept you as a member, even if they do let you sit on a pew (and not all will). And almost certainly wherever you go there will be something else unlikeable that pops up eventually.
Of course, if they won't let you come, you're considered reprobate if you go to the Trinity church down the road, too...
I wish pastors would stop fighting over people and let them live for God. I've seen too many people walk out because they felt it was the only option left.
I dont think theres anything wrong with "open toed" shoes. Its not biblical. But the Bible does give authority to the minstry to use their own judgement. That is Biblical. Dont like it....go to another church. If it can be backed up with a Biblical "precept or principal" thats different.
If it can't be backed up you just play the "authority" card.......so why bother discussing with you?
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I dont think theres anything wrong with "open toed" shoes. Its not biblical. But the Bible does give authority to the minstry to use their own judgement. That is Biblical. Dont like it....go to another church. If it can be backed up with a Biblical "precept or principal" thats different.
Yes, but it does not give the ministry the right to make heaven or hell issues out of what boils down to a minister's or group of minister's preferences.
The whole "Apostolic Identity" thing is just another wall that allows them to define who is "apostolic" and who is not. And of course to judge as lost anyone who ain't just like us.
That kinda thing is precisely why I would never join the UPCI or even attend a UPCI church outside of an occasional visit.
But like I said previously, it is their org they can do what they want with it. But I do feel for the folks who have close ties through family. I don't have any close ties in it except for a few friends.
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Last edited by John Atkinson; 01-19-2010 at 01:34 PM.
Yes, but it does not give the ministry the right to make heaven or hell issues out of what boils down to a minister's or group of minister's preferences.
The whole "Apostolic Identity thing is just another wall that allows them to define who is "apostolic" and who is not. And of course to judge as lost anyone who ain't just like us.
John you got it ... it's the inverse of Charismatic and Emergent.
It's a tool for disfellowship founded in inaccuracy and deception.
I wouldn't kind seeing DuetCh8 give us scripture that teaches a new testament women that she can not wear a bifurcated garment.
People seem to be playing "pick-n-choose" with Old Testament verses. They want the twenty-third Psalm, the hundredth Psalm, and all the OT verses that won’t affect their lifestyle, but then they try to explain away any OT verse that would have any effect on how they live.
2 Timothy 3:16 - ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and IS PROFITABLE for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
But I GUESS 1 Corinthians 11 want do it for you either ...will it?
Is not Deuteronomy 22:5 scripture? If so, then it is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness. Preachers, will you be like so many of the mockers of today and cut these verses out of your Bible as Jehoiakim did? Or will you stand like Paul and be able to say,
"And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house," - Acts 20:20
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
Throughout this passage Paul continually uses the Old Testament to prove something. Focus on verses 6 and 11. Paul tells us that those OT writings are for us today.
I suppose Paul would be called a legalist or a Pharisee by the mockers. Just because something is in the OT does not negate it from being applicable for us in the church age. Any commandment or teaching in the OT that is repeated in the NT is for us.
People seem to be playing "pick-n-choose" with Old Testament verses. They want the twenty-third Psalm, the hundredth Psalm, and all the OT verses that won’t affect their lifestyle, but then they try to explain away any OT verse that would have any effect on how they live.
2 Timothy 3:16 - ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration of God, and IS PROFITABLE for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
But I GUESS 1 Corinthians 11 want do it for you either ...will it?
Is not Deuteronomy 22:5 scripture? If so, then it is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness. Preachers, will you be like so many of the mockers of today and cut these verses out of your Bible as Jehoiakim did? Or will you stand like Paul and be able to say,
"And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house," - Acts 20:20
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
Throughout this passage Paul continually uses the Old Testament to prove something. Focus on verses 6 and 11. Paul tells us that those OT writings are for us today.
I suppose Paul would be called a legalist or a Pharisee by the mockers. Just because something is in the OT does not negate it from being applicable for us in the church age. Any commandment or teaching in the OT that is repeated in the NT is for us.
There you have it ... you can't wear undies or gloves.
I would say YES, emphatically. They are shared with the 1st century church. Considering the fact that...well....they (the apostles) wrote the scripture in the 1st century of the church.
And yes....STANDARD is in the BIBLE.
Standard = An acknowledged measure of comparison for quantitative or qualitative value; a criterion.
Jeffrey, I dont have a problem with our doctrine or standards....so you pick the subject and we will continue.
I certainly have a "problem" with standards, which in our vernacular or minimums we set on one's relationship with Jesus. Especially when they lack scripture. Would it then surprise you if I were to take the time and cite the links and resources of Jewish Christian women in the first century with trimmed hair, jewelry and cosmetics on their face? What is your claim that the 1st Century church has the same standards? That's eisegesis on the highest level.
I dont think theres anything wrong with "open toed" shoes. Its not biblical. But the Bible does give authority to the minstry to use their own judgement. That is Biblical. Dont like it....go to another church. If it can be backed up with a Biblical "precept or principal" thats different.
Where do the elders have the right to go beyond scripture? Please cite your scripture.
Also, I can make a principle of anything in scripture. You don't agree with open-toed shoes, but they reference "principle" when laying down the law on that. Where do you draw the line to where it's no matter of that church's preference, but to the point that it is wrong? When they demand women wear burkhas? When they tell the people not to talk to other Christians? When they demand women to stay home (scriptural principle)? You see, that's dangerous ground when you decide to float away from the Text. Everything except drinking the Kool-Aid, and even JJ had some good principle for that.
Problem is, what ship to jump to? UPC isn't the only one that is "sinking"... Many denominations are struggling with issues of worship, music, acceptance... just in an entirely different way that OP.
True, but the struggles are a lot different and the conversation a lot more friendly.
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