Elder EB, I have not spoken to him about it at all, but can assure you that there is no offense to make peace with, thus nothing to forgive.
He is his own man, and has been since he labored in this city at the ripe old age of 26...
Bishop didn't seek my counsel before he made his decisions. If he had, I would have advised him to wait.
But this is all a moot point...the brethren did their thing and it is done.
That being said, I am entitled to an opinion like everyone else. You posted, and I responded with my thoughts.
Trust all is well with you and your family in the frozen south. My brother lives in Spring Hill, and when he called our mom the other morning, he said he couldn't believe how cold it was.
We are looking for a heat wave here this weekend...they're predicting 36 degrees!!
Opinion noted, since there is nothing to forgive and there is peace, then allow time to prove all things.
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
... Can tongueless people speak in tonngues? That would have to be answered by asking the question, can the blind see, the deaf hear, and the dumb speak? Can they?
Sadly, in this case the verbs are all past tense - "Did they?"
No she didn't.
And none of us honestly had the power to grow her new body parts. She was weak and dying when we found her. Despite desperate prayers for healing she continued to weaken.
But, she heard the Gospel. She was baptized by immersion in Jesus' name. And, she was able to communicate to her family a description of wonderful peace, joy and forgiveness from sin that filled her heart.
Jesus Christ had a Gospel for her. It just didn't fit the bill for some people.
Have you ever prayed with the deaf to receive the Holy Ghost? Did they? Did they also receive hearing for their ears? Have you ever prayed with someone who is blind to be saved? Were they healed? Or were they "just saved?"
Have you ever prayed with the deaf to receive the Holy Ghost? Did they? Did they also receive hearing for their ears?
There was a deaf brother in the assembly I used to attend, and he seemed to be regarded as an unborn Christian, simply because no one had heard him "speak in tongues." I'm not sure, but I suspect it was communicated to him that he was not really "in Christ" because of this. That was as far back as I can remember, maybe 15 or 20 years, and before I left, folks would still occasionally "work" with him at the altar when he went to pray.
Last edited by noeticknight; 01-14-2010 at 12:26 AM.
Sadly, in this case the verbs are all past tense - "Did they?"
No she didn't.
And none of us honestly had the power to grow her new body parts. She was weak and dying when we found her. Despite desperate prayers for healing she continued to weaken.
But, she heard the Gospel. She was baptized by immersion in Jesus' name. And, she was able to communicate to her family a description of wonderful peace, joy and forgiveness from sin that filled her heart.
Jesus Christ had a Gospel for her. It just didn't fit the bill for some people.
Then there is no argument, you are throughly convinced. I'm saddened by your story, it is grievous and yet I believe what I believe. You believe what you believe and therefore you are fine with how the story ends. I deal with the what "ifs" all the time, and people ask about what happens if a person is dying in the desert, and there is no water to baptize with, and no one to baptize the dying repented man? If he dies, is he lost?
Some cut through all that mustard, and just end up with a Gospel of Inclusion where everyone is saved.
Yet, may cooler heads prevail.
Brother Dave, you believe the woman is saved, then that's all you need. No amount of my bad grammar mixed with scripture is going to change your mind. May the Lord lead you in a positive direction in your future studies.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother David
Have you ever prayed with the deaf to receive the Holy Ghost? Did they? Did they also receive hearing for their ears? Have you ever prayed with someone who is blind to be saved? Were they healed? Or were they "just saved?"
Brother Dave, I seen and heard God heal, but even if I had no physical evidence, I still take the Bible for what it says. The blind get their sight, the deaf hear, the dumb speak, and the dead are raised to life. A young Brother came to the church about 16 years ago. He went around with his Bible opened asking everyone, "when were we going to do the things in the Book."
Brother Dave, may we still long to see and hear the things written in the Book.
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
...Brother Dave, I seen and heard God heal, but even if I had no physical evidence, I still take the Bible for what it says. The blind get their sight, the deaf hear, the dumb speak, and the dead are raised to life. A young Brother came to the church about 16 years ago. He went around with his Bible opened asking everyone, "when were we going to do the things in the Book."
So, when are we? How does that young Brother feel about it today?
Did I and the others fail in the ministry because we couldn't see her healed and speaking in tongues? There are several pastors that came out of that group (3 come immediately to mind). What should we have done differently? How could we have seen that young woman into the Kingdom of God? What did we do wrong?
Your grammar's not so bad, E.B. I think your problem isn't what you've said, but what you've left unsaid.
So, when are we? How does that young Brother feel about it today?
He is living for God, and feeling..pretty..groovy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother David
Did I and the others fail in the ministry because we couldn't see her healed and speaking in tongues?
Maybe Paul and the Phillpian Church felt the same way about Brother Epaphroditus' situation? Brother Epaphroditus had a bad illness that he almost died. The churches and the ministry no doubt had him on the prayer list, yet healing didn't come right away. Brother David, you and the people of your fellowship are not the ones who baptize people with the Holy Ghost. In Act 5:32 we are told that God gives the Holy Ghost to those who obey Him. That kind of keeps you and your fellowship out of that loop. In Heb 5:9 we are told that obedience leads to spiritual maturity. I think we place too much hope on under the wire salvation. I personally feel it is just a way to let the habitual back slider think he or she can slide into home base before getting tagged out.
I don't know this woman, or your personal situation on this woman. I don't want to tread on your feelings for this woman, and I feel that I won't change your mind concerning this issue. So, therefore allow me to say, that you and your fellowship had no foul or failure that she didn't speak in tongues and get healed. It will always be up to the individual, and not the ministers or the congregation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother David
There are several pastors that came out of that group (3 come immediately to mind). What should we have done differently? How could we have seen that young woman into the Kingdom of God? What did we do wrong?
Brother David, it is not about "we."
It is only about she or he.
Sometimes "we" make ourselves sick over circumstances beyond our control.
Let's do our job, and Jesus will do His. All of us can give testimony about those who slid through the cracks. Who "we" put so much into, as far as prayer, fasting, and time. Yet, it is Jesus and only Jesus who gives the increase. Paul, and Apollos understood this factor. We must concentrate on how we are doing. If we sweep around our own front porch we might just be a tad ahead of the game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brother David
Your grammar's not so bad, E.B. I think your problem isn't what you've said, but what you've left unsaid.
If I left anything unsaid then I'm sorry for that, yet maybe better that it was left unsaid.
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
Bro David, I agree with you in this situation. The question this seems to have come to reminds me of the philosophical question: "If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, did it make a sound?" http://wiki.answers.com/Q/If_a_tree_...t_make_a_sound
There are places in God that everyone on earth can get to that go beyond words... in any language.
I think it is a dangerous precedence to use extreme situations and relatively rare limitations as an indicator of what God requires from all of us. Does the fact that some lack the cognitive ability to repent, confess, or accept Jesus as their Lord an Savior mean that God does not require that of everyone else?
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
I think it is a dangerous precedence to use extreme situations and relatively rare limitations as an indicator of what God requires from all of us. Does the fact that some lack the cognitive ability to repent, confess, or accept Jesus as their Lord an Savior mean that God does not require that of everyone else?
Not sure what you mean by "extreme situations" or "rare limitations," but many human handicaps are not extreme or rare at all, relatively speaking. I believe these real life scenarios test the level of dogmatism some people have regarding certain doctrines.
My understanding on many Biblical issues differs significantly from most of the religious hardliners I'm familiar with. I'm not so rigid, nor do I believe God is, to deem a deaf individual illegitimate in Christ because they did not "speak in tongues," or hold someone as suspect who was reconciled to Christ during their last days in the ICU, even though they were unable to be immersed in water for baptism. Then again, I do not hold the aforementioned doctrines in the same light as the doctrinaires, so I really don't have to go there anyway.
Last edited by noeticknight; 01-15-2010 at 12:41 AM.
Not sure what you mean by "extreme situations" or "rare limitations," but many human handicaps are not extreme or rare at all, relatively speaking. I believe these real life scenarios test the level of dogmatism some people have regarding certain doctrines. Are you saying people with handicaps are exceptions to God's Word?
I would consider the lack of a jaw or a tongue to be a relatively rare limitation.
I'm just saying that using the rare case of someone lacking a tongue to determine whether the Bible teaches the necessity of tongues is dangerous. I would be inclined to believe that there are some who are physically or mentally incapable of adhering to or obeying any criteria that any of us would believe is required by God. If that becomes the standard as opposed to the Word of God, we can quickly get to the point where nothing is necessary because there will always be a relatively rare minority that is incapable of performing it.
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
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