Lot's Revelation of Grace

[EA]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

It sure seems that way to me. Lot was a just man. He lived in an evil city and yet remained just. We blast him for it, but God doesn't. Daniel lived in a wicked city too, but that didn't destroy him. The idea that Lot was so influenced by his culture that he became unrighteous is pure conjecture and has not a single verse to substantiate it.

Daniel was a prisoner, a resident of Bablyon by compulsion.

Lot was a prisoner the lusts of his flesh, even if he hadn't acted upon them. He was a voluntary prisoner.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

He was not unrighteous for being IN the twin cities. Howver, being in the twin cities led to unrighteousness.

His affections led him down a hurtful, incestuous path that led to the death of his wife, separation from his occupation, violent children and a life of shame.

God had to forcibly separate him from a situation that he should have left voluntarily.

After your first sentence it is all interpretation on your part. Maybe your right. But maybe not. I see people who have every opportunity to live right, raised in a good home, protected from the world and yet they make poor choices. I also have seen people raised in awful environments that make good choices.

We don't know that living there caused him to do anything. Did Daniel and his comrades make those choices while living in Babylon?

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

Daniel was a prisoner, a resident of Bablyon by compulsion.

Lot was a prisoner the lusts of his flesh, even if he hadn't acted upon them. He was a voluntary prisoner.

Regardless both were in the culture of corruption. Why they were there makes little difference.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

I don't know.

What if, while driving, you maliciously curse someone, only to be ran over by a truck in the next instant? No opportunity for repentance.

Does God consider you unrighteous? Are you lost forever?

All I know is we will all be judged according to the things we did in this life. This includes thoughts, words, actions. Can we stand before God with unrepented sin and be declared right?

[RevDWW]

Originally Posted by RevDWW

Lot did not have sex with his daughters any more than a victim of a date rape drug has sex with the rapist. Do I need to post the scripture again?

Gen 19:30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.
Gen 19:31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
Gen 19:32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
Gen 19:33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
Gen 19:34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
Gen 19:35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
Gen 19:36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.

For all intents and purposes they drug their Dad to fulfill there purpose to have seed in the earth.

Bump for EA sports......

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by Edward Anglin

That's not the point.

Prove that he married a relative, and then we'll talk.

Ok, offer one, just one other alternative. your being evasive and the answer is obvious. God did not forbid incest until the Mosaic law. And what of Abraham? He could not have married Sarah in our society.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by RevDWW

Lot did not have sex with his daughters any more than a victim of a date rape drug has sex with the rapist. Do I need to post the scripture again?

Gen 19:30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.
Gen 19:31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
Gen 19:32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
Gen 19:33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
Gen 19:34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
Gen 19:35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
Gen 19:36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.

For all intents and purposes they drug their Dad to fulfill there purpose to have seed in the earth.

I don't see how it is possible for a woman to rape a man????????????????????????????????????

[EA]

Originally Posted by RevDWW

Lot did not have sex with his daughters any more than a victim of a date rape drug has sex with the rapist. Do I need to post the scripture again?

Gen 19:30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.
Gen 19:31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
Gen 19:32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
Gen 19:33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
Gen 19:34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
Gen 19:35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
Gen 19:36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.

For all intents and purposes they drug their Dad to fulfill there purpose to have seed in the earth.

Dan, Lot's choices led him to Zoar and then the cave. HIS choices.

Some doors are better left unopened, and Lot learned that lesson too late. Have you considered where his daughter's got the idea to perform this act upon their father?

By the way, it's the same principle involved in the story of Noah's ark. The ark was meant to separate Noah's family from the sin of that day, but God, in his mercy, spared eight sin carriers - Noah, and his family.

Those folks imitated what they had seen before the flood, after the flood.

Environment is a powerful thing.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

All I know is we will all be judged according to the things we did in this life. This includes thoughts, words, actions. Can we stand before God with unrepented sin and be declared right?

Yes. First, you assume that you know every time you sin. In the OT their were sacrifices for sins of ignorance, If Jesus fulfilled all then he is the sacrifice for sins committed in ignorance as well.

I reject the idea that I have to live perfectly to be declared righteous before God. I am righteous because he has declared me so, not because I can be righteous on my own.

And no that is not an excuse to sin.

[EA]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Regardless both were in the culture of corruption. Why they were there makes little difference.

Malarky.

Intent is everything.

Affection direction is everything.

Two people can commit the very same act only for one to be declared righteous, and the other unrighteous.