Your answer to illegal immigration.

[coadie]

Originally Posted by TJJJ

You know Aquila,

It seems that some have forgotten that a Christian lives in two worlds. The physical and the Spiritual! We have two laws to look at and observe! We are in this world (physical) but not of this world! We are children of the Physical world!

I wonder what Jermyn and Coadie would do if and when it becomes illegal to be a Christian? I wonder if their WORLDY duties are going to force them to turn their Bro's in?

They absolutely do not understand the difference it seems!

I come from a persecuted church. Most of you don't know what it is. We have had property siezed from our family.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Aquila

That was under the Old Covenant. God was dealing with a nation, not a Church. The Church is called to a higher standard of holiness. In addition Israel was governed by Judges and guided by prophets who heard from God. When Israel wanted a King (a political system) soon God's hand of protection left the nation and they were left to fight very bloody wars... many of which were judgments upon them. War itself is a judgment. When a nation pleases God, God protects them. You'll see throughout the early portions of the Old Testament it was God who miraculously destroyed Israel's enemies. It wasn't until their backsliding that they actually found themselves back to back swinging swords.

Keep in mind, King David was not permitted by God to build the Temple because he was a man of war and had shed much blood. While we in Western culture glorify war... God hates war.

Christians never shed blood throughout the New Testament. In fact history testifies that Christians serving in the Roman armies accepted execution for treason before shedding blood for Rome, an earthly nation. While Christians are admonished to obey the laws of our respective earthly nations... we are not of them. We are to be separate. That is "holiness". Holiness is more than a dress code. We are not to become their pawns to use to kill in geopolitical games of global conquest or hegemony. Satan is the god of this world. Governments are under intense deception. Why in God's name would a "Christian" kill for this depraved world system? Tell me, most feel Obama is a tool of Satan... why would you want to become a soldier to kill at his bidding? When the Antichrist takes control, do you want to be serving in the military? Will you follow orders and round up precious saints of God for prison camps? No? You'd resist? Why put yourself in that position? Aren't you more valuable spreading the word of God, serving your church, and guiding your family?

What I say unto YOU I say unto ALL... THINK!!!

This is a national issue. Governments, even ours are not founded upon the same principles you are saying. We warred with Britian for our independence. Our very freedoms were founded upon bloodshed. While Christians may not should shed blood, surely it is a nation's duty to protect it's people from outside oppression. To do this they need armys. Should they be used on illegal immigrants? I don't think so. But, the principles you are trying to encourage will never actually work for a government that keeps its people from outside oppression

Originally Posted by Aquila

Another point to make on this...

It was "GOD" who commanded that Israel do this. God is God and God has the right to order the destruction of a people. However, Obama isn't God. If God guided American through prophets and we were ruled by a just and righteous king, I might see no issue with going to war at the command of God. But NO nation today is ancient Israel. It would be a human ruler bent on political power fueld by greed ordering you to war.

Also, if it's ethically right for a Christian to serve in the United States military... is it ethically right for a Russian Christian to serve in the Russian military? If so... what happens if a conflict arises between the United States and Russia? Is it ethically right for one Christian to try to kill the other on the battlfield for their respective earthly nations?

What I say unto you I say unto all.... THINK!!!

Should the american christians have killed the british christians in the revolutionary war? It is impossible to have this nation without this having occurred. What you are advocating is that there should have never been a united states in the first place. If your principles didn't work in establishing what we have, what makes you think they will work in its upkeep?

Originally Posted by Aquila

How do you know God isn't putting these precious souls in reach of the Gospel?

We are the Kingdom of God, not the Kingdom of Conservatism. We don't operate on a politcal level, we are a spiritual kingdom. After America falls and is found in the pages of history books... there will still be the Church.

How do we know that God didn't intend for them to hear the gospel in mexico? This is probably a bad analogy but, what if God has placed terrorists here so they might hear the gospel? Does that mean we should do nothing about any of the situations involving them, just because some might hear the gospel here?

Originally Posted by Aquila

Most illegals are not dangerous criminals. They are just wanting a chance at life. A chance they aren't getting where they come from. If I was born where some of these people were born I'd flee here too.

In a way you have to admire their tenacity and hunger for freedom. They risk their lives to get here in many cases... they get here and life under the table fearing every day that they'll be found, arrested and sent home. Yet they still come. The beacon of hope and freedom burns bright and the human soul can't resist it. We should be honored that they would stop at nothing to get here. In a way, they're earning their citizenship with blood, sweat, and tears. Souls crying in the night for freedom, for hope... for a chance. A chance that most of us born here take for granted. They see the Statue of Liberty and brave the waters and the dogs to live in her shadow. We say, "Awe, what a nice statue." Many if found are deported... only to try to flee here yet again. Some have been deported serval times.

Maybe they love our country more than we're giving them credit for....

Just a thought.

You are right. Most aren't major criminals. If they faced major punishment upon coming and did anyways you might could admire them. But as it is they face pretty much NO punishment when they are caught. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain by coming here illegally. In fact I think most would leave if we did enforce strict laws on illegal immigration. They aren't here because of their love of our country despite the punishment they face for coming. They are here because they see no punishment in coming. It's a situation where the thought is, "Might as well give it a chance, what's the worst that could happen?"

Originally Posted by Aquila

It was once illegal for slaves to flee to the North for freedom and a better life. Christians in that time were the only people in society most of them could trust to shelter them.

I lived next door to illegals. I had them do a few jobs for me and paid them well. I talked to them about God, about freedom, about where they came from. I got to know their significant others and their kids. Beatuiful kids. I looked at pictures of spouses and children who were still in Ecuador. I saw the tears roll down a man's face as he shared how much he missed his family and wished they could live in a place like America. He'd send so much of his money home sometimes he was living on next to nothing. What clothing and furniture he had were used. He just wanted a better life for his family.

There were also christians trying to round up the escaped slaves...

The sob storys that can be painted of the poor helpless illegal immigrants... What point do they serve? Should they be allowed to come here illegally just because they are poor and helpless? On a more personal level, should anyone be allowed to come into your home and stay uninvited (even if they were homeless)? If so, why not? Why should that be any different than a country? Would you fight back if someone did try that in your house? Would you repel them by force (not lethal of course)? Why should it be any different for a country?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by TJJJ

You know Aquila,

It seems that some have forgotten that a Christian lives in two worlds. The physical and the Spiritual! We have two laws to look at and observe! We are in this world (physical) but not of this world! We are children of the Physical world!

I wonder what Jermyn and Coadie would do if and when it becomes illegal to be a Christian? I wonder if their WORLDY duties are going to force them to turn their Bro's in?

They absolutely do not understand the difference it seems!

Amen.

[Aquila]

I like this as taken from the Libertarian Party's website. It sort of embodies my personal opinion on the matter,

Issues
Immigration
Immigration Law Should Reflect Our Dynamic Labor Market
By Daniel T. Griswold
Among its many virtues, America is a nation where laws are generally reasonable, respected and impartially enforced. A glaring exception is immigration.
Today an estimated 12 million people live in the U.S. without authorization, 1.6 million in Texas alone, and that number grows every year. Many Americans understandably want the rule of law restored to a system where law-breaking has become the norm.
The fundamental choice before us is whether we redouble our efforts to enforce existing immigration law, whatever the cost, or whether we change the law to match the reality of a dynamic society and labor market.
Low-skilled immigrants cross the Mexican border illegally or overstay their visas for a simple reason: There are jobs waiting here for them to fill, especially in Texas and other, faster growing states. Each year our economy creates hundreds of thousands of net new jobs — in such sectors as retail, cleaning, food preparation, construction and tourism — that require only short-term, on-the-job training.
At the same time, the supply of Americans who have traditionally filled many of those jobs — those without a high school diploma — continues to shrink. Their numbers have declined by 4.6 million in the past decade, as the typical American worker becomes older and better educated.
Yet our system offers no legal channel for anywhere near a sufficient number of peaceful, hardworking immigrants to legally enter the United States even temporarily to fill this growing gap. The predictable result is illegal immigration.
In response, we can spend billions more to beef up border patrols. We can erect hundreds of miles of ugly fence slicing through private property along the Rio Grande. We can raid more discount stores and chicken-processing plants from coast to coast. We can require all Americans to carry a national ID card and seek approval from a government computer before starting a new job.
Or we can change our immigration law to more closely conform to how millions of normal people actually live.
Crossing an international border to support your family and pursue dreams of a better life is not an inherently criminal act like rape or robbery. If it were, then most of us descend from criminals. As the people of Texas know well, the large majority of illegal immigrants are not bad people. They are people who value family, faith and hard work trying to live within a bad system.
When large numbers of otherwise decent people routinely violate a law, the law itself is probably the problem. To argue that illegal immigration is bad merely because it is illegal avoids the threshold question of whether we should prohibit this kind of immigration in the first place.
We've faced this choice on immigration before. In the early 1950s, federal agents were making a million arrests a year along the Mexican border. In response, Congress ramped up enforcement, but it also dramatically increased the number of visas available through the Bracero guest worker program. As a result, apprehensions at the border dropped 95 percent. By changing the law, we transformed an illegal inflow of workers into a legal flow.
For those workers already in the United States illegally, we can avoid "amnesty" and still offer a pathway out of the underground economy. Newly legalized workers can be assessed fines and back taxes and serve probation befitting the misdemeanor they've committed. They can be required to take their place at the back of the line should they eventually apply for permanent residency.
The fatal flaw of the 1986 Immigration Reform and Control Act was not that it offered legal status to workers already here but that it made no provision for future workers to enter legally.
Immigration is not the only area of American life where a misguided law has collided with reality. In the 1920s and '30s, Prohibition turned millions of otherwise law-abiding Americans into lawbreakers and spawned an underworld of moon-shining, boot-legging and related criminal activity. (Sound familiar?) We eventually made the right choice to tax and regulate alcohol rather than prohibit it.
In the 19th century, America's frontier was settled largely by illegal squatters. In his influential book on property rights, The Mystery of Capital, economist Hernando de Soto describes how these so-called extralegals began to farm, mine and otherwise improve land to which they did not have strict legal title. After failed attempts by the authorities to destroy their cabins and evict them, federal and state officials finally recognized reality, changed the laws, declared amnesty and issued legal documents conferring title to the land the settlers had improved.
As Mr. de Soto wisely concluded: "The law must be compatible with how people actually arrange their lives." That must be a guiding principle when Congress returns to the important task of fixing our immigration laws.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I like this as taken from the Libertarian Party's website. It sort of embodies my personal opinion on the matter,

Issues
Immigration
Immigration Law Should Reflect Our Dynamic Labor Market
By Daniel T. Griswold
Among its many virtues, America is a nation where laws are generally reasonable, respected and impartially enforced. A glaring exception is immigration.
Today an estimated 12 million people live in the U.S. without authorization, 1.6 million in Texas alone, and that number grows every year. Many Americans understandably want the rule of law restored to a system where law-breaking has become the norm.
The fundamental choice before us is whether we redouble our efforts to enforce existing immigration law, whatever the cost, or whether we change the law to match the reality of a dynamic society and labor market.
Low-skilled immigrants cross the Mexican border illegally or overstay their visas for a simple reason: There are jobs waiting here for them to fill, especially in Texas and other, faster growing states. Each year our economy creates hundreds of thousands of net new jobs — in such sectors as retail, cleaning, food preparation, construction and tourism — that require only short-term, on-the-job training.
At the same time, the supply of Americans who have traditionally filled many of those jobs — those without a high school diploma — continues to shrink. Their numbers have declined by 4.6 million in the past decade, as the typical American worker becomes older and better educated.
Yet our system offers no legal channel for anywhere near a sufficient number of peaceful, hardworking immigrants to legally enter the United States even temporarily to fill this growing gap. The predictable result is illegal immigration.
In response, we can spend billions more to beef up border patrols. We can erect hundreds of miles of ugly fence slicing through private property along the Rio Grande. We can raid more discount stores and chicken-processing plants from coast to coast. We can require all Americans to carry a national ID card and seek approval from a government computer before starting a new job.
Or we can change our immigration law to more closely conform to how millions of normal people actually live.
Crossing an international border to support your family and pursue dreams of a better life is not an inherently criminal act like rape or robbery. If it were, then most of us descend from criminals. As the people of Texas know well, the large majority of illegal immigrants are not bad people. They are people who value family, faith and hard work trying to live within a bad system.
When large numbers of otherwise decent people routinely violate a law, the law itself is probably the problem. To argue that illegal immigration is bad merely because it is illegal avoids the threshold question of whether we should prohibit this kind of immigration in the first place.
We've faced this choice on immigration before. In the early 1950s, federal agents were making a million arrests a year along the Mexican border. In response, Congress ramped up enforcement, but it also dramatically increased the number of visas available through the Bracero guest worker program. As a result, apprehensions at the border dropped 95 percent. By changing the law, we transformed an illegal inflow of workers into a legal flow.
For those workers already in the United States illegally, we can avoid "amnesty" and still offer a pathway out of the underground economy. Newly legalized workers can be assessed fines and back taxes and serve probation befitting the misdemeanor they've committed. They can be required to take their place at the back of the line should they eventually apply for permanent residency.
The fatal flaw of the 1986 Immigration Reform and Control Act was not that it offered legal status to workers already here but that it made no provision for future workers to enter legally.
Immigration is not the only area of American life where a misguided law has collided with reality. In the 1920s and '30s, Prohibition turned millions of otherwise law-abiding Americans into lawbreakers and spawned an underworld of moon-shining, boot-legging and related criminal activity. (Sound familiar?) We eventually made the right choice to tax and regulate alcohol rather than prohibit it.
In the 19th century, America's frontier was settled largely by illegal squatters. In his influential book on property rights, The Mystery of Capital, economist Hernando de Soto describes how these so-called extralegals began to farm, mine and otherwise improve land to which they did not have strict legal title. After failed attempts by the authorities to destroy their cabins and evict them, federal and state officials finally recognized reality, changed the laws, declared amnesty and issued legal documents conferring title to the land the settlers had improved.
As Mr. de Soto wisely concluded: "The law must be compatible with how people actually arrange their lives." That must be a guiding principle when Congress returns to the important task of fixing our immigration laws.

I can agree with that. I have no problem giving them a legal way to work in this country.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by jfrog

This is a national issue. Governments, even ours are not founded upon the same principles you are saying. We warred with Britian for our independence. Our very freedoms were founded upon bloodshed. While Christians may not should shed blood, surely it is a nation's duty to protect it's people from outside oppression. To do this they need armys. Should they be used on illegal immigrants? I don't think so. But, the principles you are trying to encourage will never actually work for a government that keeps its people from outside oppression

Our freedoms are not founded upon bloodshed. Our freedoms are God given freedoms (perhaps founded on the blood of Christ). The Constitution doesn’t grant freedoms… the government doesn’t grant freedoms. God gives mankind freedom. The Constitution and Government are only to protect God given freedoms.

And I agree with you, in a fallen world, fallen nations much protect themselves. We do well to stand out of their way and pray for them while they war for their worldly interests. We do well not to involve ourselves in this world’s wars. Just my opinion.

Should the american christians have killed the british christians in the revolutionary war? It is impossible to have this nation without this having occurred. What you are advocating is that there should have never been a united states in the first place. If your principles didn't work in establishing what we have, what makes you think they will work in its upkeep?

Absolutely not. It wasn’t right. It was a tragedy that Christian had to kill Christian. Interestingly Canada got its freedom from Britain without firing a shot. The true Christians of that age such as the Quakers were pacifists. They took no side but the side of prayer. They took up no arms but the cross. They could be depended upon for logistical support, moral support, and prayer… but killing for an earthly nation was something they simply would not do. Yes, it infuriated General George Washington, but they stuck to authentic Christian ethics.

How do we know that God didn't intend for them to hear the gospel in mexico? This is probably a bad analogy but, what if God has placed terrorists here so they might hear the gospel? Does that mean we should do nothing about any of the situations involving them, just because some might hear the gospel here?

How do we know God didn’t intend them to be abducted by Martians to preach the Gospel on Mars?

You can’t equate illegal immigration to terrorism. No similarity.

You are right. Most aren't major criminals. If they faced major punishment upon coming and did anyways you might could admire them. But as it is they face pretty much NO punishment when they are caught. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain by coming here illegally. In fact I think most would leave if we did enforce strict laws on illegal immigration. They aren't here because of their love of our country despite the punishment they face for coming. They are here because they see no punishment in coming. It's a situation where the thought is, "Might as well give it a chance, what's the worst that could happen?"

How can you ethically enforce a law that punishes the human desire for freedom?

There were also christians trying to round up the escaped slaves...

Of course those Christians beat them brutally in the process and used expletives when speaking to them.

Just because something is legal it doesn’t make it right. Just because something is illegal it doesn’t make it wrong.

The sob storys that can be painted of the poor helpless illegal immigrants... What point do they serve? Should they be allowed to come here illegally just because they are poor and helpless? On a more personal level, should anyone be allowed to come into your home and stay uninvited (even if they were homeless)? If so, why not? Why should that be any different than a country? Would you fight back if someone did try that in your house? Would you repel them by force (not lethal of course)? Why should it be any different for a country?

There are just laws and unjust laws. If a law is against a fundamental principle of human rights it’s unjust. More problematic is that a law can be “just” in its purpose or intent but be really unenforceable. If it’s unenforceable it makes it unjust.

I believe that our current immigration law isn’t enforceable (without billions of extra dollars, massive fencing projects, and increase in police power) and isn’t realistic. We need reform. To enforce current immigration law we’d need to bring American closer to a police state.

[simplyme]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Most illegals are not dangerous criminals. They are just wanting a chance at life. A chance they aren't getting where they come from. If I was born where some of these people were born I'd flee here too.

In a way you have to admire their tenacity and hunger for freedom. They risk their lives to get here in many cases... they get here and life under the table fearing every day that they'll be found, arrested and sent home. Yet they still come. The beacon of hope and freedom burns bright and the human soul can't resist it. We should be honored that they would stop at nothing to get here. In a way, they're earning their citizenship with blood, sweat, and tears. Souls crying in the night for freedom, for hope... for a chance. A chance that most of us born here take for granted. They see the Statue of Liberty and brave the waters and the dogs to live in her shadow. We say, "Awe, what a nice statue." Many if found are deported... only to try to flee here yet again. Some have been deported serval times.

Maybe they love our country more than we're giving them credit for....

Just a thought.

I'm a bit more cautious in giving that much credit to those whom break
laws to enter this country to begin reaping the benefits given to those
whom are legally citizens. I would be happier if they got here legally and
then started the correct process of becoming citizens.

IF they love this country so much, would they be make a great first impression
BY breaking the laws of this nation?
Its DESPERATION that compells most illegals to risk their lives to come
here., YET I also think that IF they trusted in GOD more to hep them
right where they're at, they wouldn't have to be risking the lives of their loved ones.,
I cringe everytime I hear, or read, of more illegals dying out in the
desert., left there by the crooks that promise them entry here after taking
every last dime that they have.
Young men that could be any one of us' sons! Soooo many have died from
other things related to their journey here., while many more have been
sent back to start over again.

Were it me stuck in such a country, I'd stay where GOD put us if it
meant risking the life of one of my children. GOD is able to provide anywhere.

[jediwill83]

I heard a comedian give a funny solution..he said he would go into the prisons and and "Congradulations...ur mexican" and let the mexicans who wanna work come on in...made some sense to me..lol

[Aquila]

Here's an ethical question....

Is wanting to be free a criminal act?

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Here's an ethical question....

Is wanting to be free a criminal act?

No more than wanting to have sex.

It depends on how one goes about it.



The problem with Christians taking a "soft" stance on illegal immigration is that, inevitably, that soft position will cause one to compromise on sin.

Either it is sin to break the natural laws that do not violate the Bible or not.

Yes, God forgives, but it can't be the norm for Christians to sin-- that would be called lasciviousness, right?

So eventually, the Holy Ghost filled illegal alien Christians should be expected and encouraged to do right by the law and correct their status-- even if it means they have to go back to wherever they came from, which is the option I prefer for ALL illegal aliens.



Is there any other sin that we can tolerate, excuse, brush under the rug, act like it's not an issue? Or maybe I'm being legalistic.

Maybe we should start classifying sins into categories of "abominable", "very wicked", "evil", "slightly sinful", and "sinful but understandable."




Based off of basic Biblical concepts of right and wrong and the account of Philemon, illegal aliens, Christians or not, should leave on their own accord or be "escorted" out, if necessary.

No one is perfect, and I need God's Grace daily.
I forgive those who offend me and I work at not holding grudges.

But I am not wrong to call sin what it is.
I am not wrong to excuse it.

I love everybody.