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06-22-2009, 11:29 PM
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Re: Another SPLIT from the UPCI???
Your original premise was a red herring. Trying to justify a non biblical standard as gospel truth while subtly suggesting that preachers who don't preach the manual are not men of integrity.
Who has more integrity? The people who don't preach the manual after signing a statement, or the people who put the unbiblical garbage in the manual? The manual is private interpretation that is forced on its constituents. Paul told the Galatians that is witchcraft. Look at it from God's viewpoint, and it will make you sick as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maple Leaf
When the conversation sinks to this level, I'm out.
I will refrain from commenting on this post to avoid offending idiots and morons by association.
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__________________
A religious spirit allows people to tolerate hatred and anger under the guise of passion and holiness. Bill Johnson
Legalism has no pity on people. Legalism makes my opinion your burden, makes opinion your boundary, makes my opinion your obligation-Lucado
Some get spiritual because they see the light. Others because they feel the heat.Ray Wylie Hubbard
Definition of legalism- Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. TV
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06-22-2009, 11:34 PM
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![tv1a's Avatar tv1a's Avatar](customavatars/avatar248_1.gif) |
God's Son
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Re: Another SPLIT from the UPCI???
Do you have another interpretation of scripture I don't know about? I don't claim to be the apostle Paul, but I do know how to read and comprehend. Paul deals with this issue more than once.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron
I do not agree with you & further, I find discussing things with you to be as productive as talking to a brick wall!
And you ain't no Apostle Paul! ![Thumbs Up](http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/smilies/thumbsup.gif)
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__________________
A religious spirit allows people to tolerate hatred and anger under the guise of passion and holiness. Bill Johnson
Legalism has no pity on people. Legalism makes my opinion your burden, makes opinion your boundary, makes my opinion your obligation-Lucado
Some get spiritual because they see the light. Others because they feel the heat.Ray Wylie Hubbard
Definition of legalism- Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. TV
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06-22-2009, 11:40 PM
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Re: Another SPLIT from the UPCI???
Quote:
Originally Posted by tv1a
Do you have another interpretation of scripture I don't know about? I don't claim to be the apostle Paul, but I do know how to read and comprehend. Paul deals with this issue more than once.
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TV1A, I will not continue a conversation with you. I will say this, you are on dangerous ground to be speaking so casually of Witchcraft from the Pulpit!
Good Night!
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06-22-2009, 11:43 PM
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Re: Another SPLIT from the UPCI???
Thanks for the kind words. But I'm covering the whole enchilada. It is ridiculous a preacher's character is questioned because he allows a woman to minister in his church who isn't a upci clone.
It is a shame we judge woman's character and integrity by what she wears to cover her private parts. Why do we tie a person's salvation with the clothes they wear? Maybe it's because a lot of us have a desire to play God. Why else do we judge others.
It's the same evil spirit Paul dealt with in the Galatian church. Instead of pork, now it's clothes. Nothing new under the sun. If it was witchcraft when Paul said. It is witchcraft now. Even a caveman can figure that out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam
Blasphemy is a pretty strong word.
He may have been referring to the "magic hair" doctrine which some preachers compare favorably to witch craft.
As far as the original charter being tossed out the window, what began as an agreement to fellowship based on mutual respect became a hostile takeover by what might be considered "the lunatic fringe."
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__________________
A religious spirit allows people to tolerate hatred and anger under the guise of passion and holiness. Bill Johnson
Legalism has no pity on people. Legalism makes my opinion your burden, makes opinion your boundary, makes my opinion your obligation-Lucado
Some get spiritual because they see the light. Others because they feel the heat.Ray Wylie Hubbard
Definition of legalism- Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. TV
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06-22-2009, 11:52 PM
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![tv1a's Avatar tv1a's Avatar](customavatars/avatar248_1.gif) |
God's Son
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Re: Another SPLIT from the UPCI???
When an entity is attempting to coerce someone to preach another gospel, they are no different the Jewish leaders trying to force their belief systems down the throats of the Galatian church.
It's not a casual comment. It is years of observation. The undue burden of forcing non biblical issues on people.
Whether or not you continue the conversation with me is irrelevant. Galatians 3:1 was set in stone when Paul wrote to the Galatian church. I can't in all good conscience read the Book of Galatians and come up with the conclusion Paul didn't mean what he said.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron
TV1A, I will not continue a conversation with you. I will say this, you are on dangerous ground to be speaking so casually of Witchcraft from the Pulpit!
Good Night!
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__________________
A religious spirit allows people to tolerate hatred and anger under the guise of passion and holiness. Bill Johnson
Legalism has no pity on people. Legalism makes my opinion your burden, makes opinion your boundary, makes my opinion your obligation-Lucado
Some get spiritual because they see the light. Others because they feel the heat.Ray Wylie Hubbard
Definition of legalism- Damned if you do. Damned if you don't. TV
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06-22-2009, 11:58 PM
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Banned
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Re: Another SPLIT from the UPCI???
Galatians 3:1-3
1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Interesting.
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06-23-2009, 12:00 AM
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Re: Another SPLIT from the UPCI???
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam
Yes for stuff like
-hair length for both men and women,
-facial hair on men,
-shaving, plucking, waxing body hair for women,
-manscaping for men
-sleeve length for men and women,
-jewelry, including neckties (cloth necklaces), including belt buckles, including metal tips on shoe laces,
-caffeine, nicotine, sugar, chocolate,
-golf, softball, card playing, board games, corn hole, marbles (marvels),any game that includes dice, basketball, hockey
-movies, tv, computers, newspapers, comic books, novels,
-Branson, Six Flags, Grand Ole Opry
-red or other specific colors for shoes or clothes,
-pajamas on women
-sexy underwear on women
-britches for men only and dresses/skirts for women only
to name a few
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Sam do women in tank tops lead worship at your church? Do you have a platform rule different than a recommended/suggested length for modesty?
I can see the Apostle Paul writing a letter to Corinth if the churches started getting off-track, playing poker, and having disputed over money. Most of us would refuse any hints/suggestions toward these behaviors?
Honest question.
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06-23-2009, 12:05 AM
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Re: Another SPLIT from the UPCI???
Quote:
Originally Posted by tv1a
Take it up with the Apostle Paul. Galatians 3:1 summarizes the garbage that fills a good chunk of the upci manual, especially the wardrobe doctrine.
My position on standards is modesty, gender separation, and not drawing unecessary attention to oneself. All three principles are Biblical based. There has not been one conservative who has challenged the principles. The women in my family follows these principles. The men in my family follows these principles. Got a problem with my view? Tell me where I am wrong.
Meanwhile It is arrogance to define one's salvation by the article of clothing between the waist and the thigh.
The fact a subjective dress code plays an integral part of an organization's identity shows how far off people are. Paul identifies that spirit as a spirit of withcraft. Can't help what the Word says.
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It sounds like we like to stay in the abstract but avoid making any application. What if half your church thought short shorts on Sunday was modest and the other half was appalled. How do you settle this?
Where does Paul identify this "spirit" as the spirit of witchcraft. I think we often use too much hyperbole to make a point. This isn't an issue of salvation, it's an issue of ecclesiology.
Again, testing opinions with honest challenges.
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06-23-2009, 12:08 AM
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Re: Another SPLIT from the UPCI???
Quote:
Originally Posted by tv1a
Your original premise was a red herring. Trying to justify a non biblical standard as gospel truth while subtly suggesting that preachers who don't preach the manual are not men of integrity.
Who has more integrity? The people who don't preach the manual after signing a statement, or the people who put the unbiblical garbage in the manual? The manual is private interpretation that is forced on its constituents. Paul told the Galatians that is witchcraft. Look at it from God's viewpoint, and it will make you sick as well.
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tv1a, you really make that equal to witchcraft??? That's not sound hermeneutic, even if you disagree with some of these misinterpreted biblical standards. We have to be honest on either position, and so far your thought process isn't logically flowing. Call a spade a spade. These men SHOULDN'T sign the affirmation statement if they don't believe it -- plain and simple, and no matter what you think of what's in it. That's garbage. These are men of God, and dishonesty and false representation is just what it is. Let's be fair.
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06-23-2009, 12:11 AM
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Re: Another SPLIT from the UPCI???
Quote:
Originally Posted by tv1a
When an entity is attempting to coerce someone to preach another gospel, they are no different the Jewish leaders trying to force their belief systems down the throats of the Galatian church.
It's not a casual comment. It is years of observation. The undue burden of forcing non biblical issues on people.
Whether or not you continue the conversation with me is irrelevant. Galatians 3:1 was set in stone when Paul wrote to the Galatian church. I can't in all good conscience read the Book of Galatians and come up with the conclusion Paul didn't mean what he said.
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Preach another gospel? You're missing it. The jewish equated the old covenant circumcision to be a necessity for salvation. We have made a big straw man of many conservative positions on standards, where they are not soteriological as much as they are ecclesiological. Not everyone thinks modesty standards are salvific -- that misses the point. So saying the preacher that admonishes his congregation to wear modest clothing, and makes application to say "let's keep it around the elbow" to a Judaizer as a literal parallel, is outrageous. Same with the Pharisee accusations. While I see major lessons, and even some eery similarities with the Pharisees and some sects of the church today, most are a LONG ways from Pharisees. That's just spouting ignorance -- and any reading on who the Judaizers were, and who Pharisees were with an objective lens would tell you that.
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