UPC - "Apostolic" Wesleyan Holiness Standards

[rgcraig]

Originally Posted by Sam

No, he didn't call me a liar.
He said he has the hardback and what I quoted is not on those pages in the hardback. I don't have the hardback any more. I think what I quoted is on the pages I referenced in the paperback but I can't find my paperback copy right now. I would not be deceptive or lie about that.

Check your hardback copy and see if that is in there somewhere. Meanwhile, I'll check the version I have on CD from vol.2 Pentecostal Digital Reference Library called Pentecostal History. It was purchased from the UPC Publishing House.

You are correct, but I don't think he was posting questioning where he might find it in his book. He was making a point it wasn't there in his book.

We've got your back and burnedtoo has confirmed it's there.

Things were a little on the edge last night it seems.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Sam

No, he didn't call me a liar.
He said he has the hardback and what I quoted is not on those pages in the hardback. I don't have the hardback any more. I think what I quoted is on the pages I referenced in the paperback but I can't find my paperback copy right now. I would not be deceptive or lie about that.

Check your hardback copy and see if that is in there somewhere. Meanwhile, I'll check the version I have on CD from vol.2 Pentecostal Digital Reference Library called Pentecostal History. It was purchased from the UPC Publishing House.

It think GB ... didn't call you a liar ... Sam .... you're right. I think it might've crossed his mind that perhaps by confusing us that perhaps Lady Goss would retract her statements .... What GB doesn't know is that you are a historical powerhouse ....

I will say that he implied that AB was a liar.

[Sam]

I don't have my paperback copy. It is lost somewhere here in the den. If you could see my shelves, etc. you would understand.

I have a CD which I purchased from the Pentecostal Publishing House. It is called Pentecostal History 1.0. It also has the words Vol.2 Pentecostal Digital Reference Library on the cover. It contains several full length books.

I checked out The Winds of God in it. On the title page, under the title, it says, "The Story of The Early Pentecostal Movement (1901-1914) in the Life of Howard A Goss by Ethel Goss." It also says "Revised 1977 Ruth Goss Nortje' "and says "Printing History 1981, 1985, 1998."

On page 69 in chapter 4 it says:

"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers
dressed in the current fashions of the day . . .
silks . . . satins . . . jewels or whatever they
happened to possess. They were very smartly
turned out, so that they made an impressive
appearance on the streets where a large part of
our work was conducted in the early years.
It was not until long after, when former
holiness preachers had become part of us,
that strict plainness of dress began to be
taught.
Although entire sanctification was preached
at the beginning of the movement, it was from
a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little
of the later holiness movement characteristics.
Nothing was ever said about apparel, for
everyone was so taken up with the Lord that
mode of dress seemingly never occurred to
any of us."

Like I said, I don't have a hardback version any more. I don't know if that hardback has those words in it or not. What I quoted above was done by copy and past from the CD.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

I agree! Not sure why we had to go messing with all these extra rules to complicate things and cause so much division within our own organization.

If you read Goss' book, you realize they didn't let these things get in their way of saving lost souls. Maybe we could learn something from history!

I doubt it, we never do.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

It think GB ... didn't call you a liar ... Sam .... you're right. I think it might've crossed his mind that perhaps by confusing us that perhaps Lady Goss would retract her statements .... What GB doesn't know is that you are a historical powerhouse ....

I will say that he implied that AB was a liar.

He implied that Sam wasn't truthful either tho, because when he said, "I have the hardback and can't find it on page 69, or 68 or 70", he ended his diatribe with a "sorry", implying, "Sorry, Sam, you're wrong".

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by rgcraig

I agree! Not sure why we had to go messing with all these extra rules to complicate things and cause so much division within our own organization.

If you read Goss' book, you realize they didn't let these things get in their way of saving lost souls. Maybe we could learn something from history!

Isn't that the truth, it is great to attend a church that creates an enviroment conducive to folks worshipping the Lord. Preach the gospel and let the HS lead folks in how to implement the word into their lives. I no longer pay any attention to how folks dress. Good grief folks have all kinds of different taste in clothing, it is cult like to dictate how folks dress. Preach modestly and let the Holy Spirit define it in folks individual lives.

[Sam]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Isn't that the truth, it is great to attend a church that creates an enviroment conducive to folks worshipping the Lord. Preach the gospel and let the HS lead folks in how to implement the word into their lives. I no longer pay any attention to how folks dress. Good grief folks have all kinds of different taste in clothing, it is cult like to dictate how folks dress. Preach modestly and let the Holy Spirit define it in folks individual lives.

That'll never work. You would have to trust folks to work out their own salvation. Where did you ever get an idea like that?

[rrford]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

I'll buy this to an extent. However, if society was even more conservative in the early 1900's, it would seem that the wearing of jewelry would have been even more out of place then. Almost a reverse separation, if you will.

NOt sure how to answer this either. I do think we realize that gaudy, flashy jewlery in the world would have been the exception and not the rule. So, true to pattern, as conservative lifestyle and dress began to iccur so did the wearing of excessive jewelry.

It would be of great interest to find some actual written accounts from ministers of that day explaining why they adopted the dress standards which they did. I do believe most would show a true "spiritual" undertaking in their apporach. JMO.

[Bishop1]

"Sack Cloths and Ashes "

Sack Cloths and Ashes may be needed today,
and while my wife is pulling out the trusty old
Singer , I will gladly provide the ashes _ _ _
{my wife cooked a burnt offering today} -

I personally was acquainted with the Goss's.
I well remember him sitting across the kitchen table
from me in our home on 512 West Grove Street
in Mishawaka Indiana -


Bishop Howard A Goss was a huge bear of a man,
well educated, former football player, and the
First General Superintendent Of The Assembles
Of God,
then PCI
and later the First G S of the UPC.

At The Great Conferance at Jackson Tennessee
{during the mid Teens} Approximately 45% of the
Ministers In The Assemblies Of God Embraced The
New Issue Doctrine and were subsequently Re-Baptized
In JESUS Name at tat time thus dealing a crushing blow
to that Organization.

Bishop Howard A Goss Was One Of The Ministers That
Accepted The Revelation Of The Godhead without Question.

During The Teens, Twenties, and the Thirties
The Churches in the Holiness Movements were as follows;

# 1 - Pentecostal Churches of the Apostolic Faith
# 2 - Pentecostal Churches of Jesus Christ
# 3 - Church of God
# 4 - Churches of The Lord Jesus Christ
# 5 - Pentecostal Church of God
# 6 - Pentecostal Holiness
# 7 - Pentecostal Church Incorporated
# 8 - Assemblies of God
# 9 - Church of Jesus Christ
# 10 - Conregational Holiness
# 11 - Wesllyan Holiness
# 12 - Nazerine

* Please note -
I have listed them in the order of their strictness
on outward holiness -
The PCI came out of the Assemblies of GOD and
their stand on outward Holiness was similar.

I well remember the Churches in Tennessee, Mississippi,
Alabama and Georgia were lookalikes with the Assemblies
of God in outward dress such as
trimmed hair, bangs, cap sleeves, short sleeves, Rings,
modest necklaces, HAIR CLIPS, HAIR STICKS, HAIR BARRETTES
and BROACHES.

After Bishop Arthur T Morgan, of the PAJC backgrown,
became the Superindendent of the UPC a stricter outward
standard of Outward Dress began to be stressed.

The First Jewelry Sermon may have been Preached By Elder
Carl Ballestero during The Great San Antonio UPCI Conference
in the mid Sixties -


You will still find Short Sleeves,
Rings,
Pins,
Hair Sticks,
Jeweled Hair Barretts
and Broaches
in the UPCI Churches
Of The PCI Decent -


Posted In Luv
by yours truly


Bishop1

[ThePastorsCoach]

Originally Posted by AtlantaBishop
This is true Barb and so was the organization I was born and raised in - The Church of God of Prophecy and the Church of God (Cleveland, TN) and Pentecostal Holiness movements all came out of Wesleyan Holiness tradition. Most have dropped most of the "standards" but do recognize the history of the "holiness" movement and the Wesley's.

Originally Posted by Gary Blacksher

My friend if you are going to be this bold than so am I.

What you are saying about the Apostolic Church and the standards of holiness are ALL lies.

You are asking for someone to prove different by scriptures and yet you have proven nothing to be expounded on with scriptures.

You are asking someone to do something that you are not willing to do.

Paul's teachings of ladies with UNCUT hair and men with CUT hair are a bit older than the 1800's.

So start producing truth and not accusations built upon gutless demands with no BIBLICAL truths.

I do apologize for such strong words but I refuse to let the "crusimatics" continue to challenge Biblical Holiness and separation from worldly, ungodly, and in-modest lifestyle thinking.

IMHO this is what the elders called stinking thinking, and the Bible calls false christ, deceivers of sound doctrine, and wolves in sheep's clothing

Is this called Preacher Bashing and Name Calling? Just wonderring!