Why do YOU believe the Bible?

[ReformedDave]

Originally Posted by OGIA

I wouldn't call it "witty". I just call it calling it what it is. You think you used scripture to poke holes in my presentation. You have some valid points, but you certainly haven't shown me anything that I need to change. And isn't that what you set out to do -- show people how God deserves to be defended?


I think you know.


Who's, mine?

I really don't understand how you think Scripture is subjective and it's your method that I think is unbiblical.

If you want an in depth article on the subject here's one by my mentor. If you actually take the time to read it(I hope you do) you might understand where I'm coming from.



www.cmfnow.com/articles/pa045.htm

[/url]www.cmfnow.com/articles/pa003.htm

[Esther]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Here's one I'm stuggling with: there are what seem to be promises in the Bible regarding healing of the sick. (I suspect we've all stuggled with this one, btw, and you probably know where I'm going with this!) BUT: not all prayers for healing result in healing. The typical responses to this are something like "Well, we don't understand why, but..." or "God's ways are not our ways" or "God has something better" (huh??) or "It's not in God's timing". None of these are very satisfying, when your loved one never recovers from an illness. And it does seem to be an example of the Bible not being 100% true.

And if the person dies from the illness, please don't say "Well, he got his healing in Heaven"! That is probably the worst, most blatant cop-out of all. It makes the whole idea of healing pointless.

Neither does it help much to say that the prayer was not in line with God's will. If it's sometimes not His will to heal, why does He promise healing in the Bible?

Or that the one praying didn't have enough faith. How much faith is enough? We've probably all seen many folks claim a healing, even to the point of stopping medication, then get hit will the illness again. I, for one, cannot fault their level of faith.

Another commonly given reason, and an insideous one it is: there must be "hidden sin". Let's pile on the guilt and shame. Blame the victim. But did Jesus (during His ministry, before the crucifixion) ever withhold healings due to sin? And how do these guilt trips glorify God? It may make us feel better to pass the blame, but how does the still sick person feel? Like a failure. Depressed and hopeless. Is that really what God wanted?

So, just as a discussion point (like I said, I am stuggling with it, myself), what do you say to this claim that many have put forth, that the scriptures that promise healing are, in fact, counter examples to the Bible's inerrancy? To put it bluntly, it seems to be a promise that is not kept!

First of all, you bring up a good question. Many of us have asked this question many times. And the answer will never be just one answer.

All the ones you have listed are valid for different cases but in no way can you say that applies to all.

Here is something I have learned.

What is the most important thing to God, you being healed or you being saved?

God knows that for some people to be healed would cause them to go back in sin.

Just as there are some people that can't seem to live for God unless they are in prison. We all know that is not what God had in mind for them in the beginning.

But God is more concerned for our souls than anything else. What happens to us here is to bring us to Him.

But we have to love God and TRUST Him to do what is best for us in relations to our soul not what we necessarily want here.

[ManOfWord]

Originally Posted by Timmy

Here's one I'm stuggling with: there are what seem to be promises in the Bible regarding healing of the sick. (I suspect we've all stuggled with this one, btw, and you probably know where I'm going with this!) BUT: not all prayers for healing result in healing. The typical responses to this are something like "Well, we don't understand why, but..." or "God's ways are not our ways" or "God has something better" (huh??) or "It's not in God's timing". None of these are very satisfying, when your loved one never recovers from an illness. And it does seem to be an example of the Bible not being 100% true.

And if the person dies from the illness, please don't say "Well, he got his healing in Heaven"! That is probably the worst, most blatant cop-out of all. It makes the whole idea of healing pointless.

Neither does it help much to say that the prayer was not in line with God's will. If it's sometimes not His will to heal, why does He promise healing in the Bible?

Or that the one praying didn't have enough faith. How much faith is enough? We've probably all seen many folks claim a healing, even to the point of stopping medication, then get hit will the illness again. I, for one, cannot fault their level of faith.

Another commonly given reason, and an insideous one it is: there must be "hidden sin". Let's pile on the guilt and shame. Blame the victim. But did Jesus (during His ministry, before the crucifixion) ever withhold healings due to sin? And how do these guilt trips glorify God? It may make us feel better to pass the blame, but how does the still sick person feel? Like a failure. Depressed and hopeless. Is that really what God wanted?

So, just as a discussion point (like I said, I am stuggling with it, myself), what do you say to this claim that many have put forth, that the scriptures that promise healing are, in fact, counter examples to the Bible's inerrancy? To put it bluntly, it seems to be a promise that is not kept!

Here's the truth as I see it, Timmy. God's word definitely makes provision for healing. We pray, lay on hands and God heals. He is the healer, we are not. I have seen God perform amazing miracles when I have anointed with oil and prayed. I have also seen times when I have done the exact same thing and nothing apparently happened.

A lot of people believe they have answers as to why healings take place at times and not at others. NONE of those answers are definitive! Even those who take the "word of faith" approach in their churches still have just as many people get sick and die as do "non-word of faith" pentecostal churches. NO ONE has it figured out, even though they say they do. God is still God and we are not. He is the Healer and we are not. We are not responsible for healing, He is.

Why doesn't it happen more often? I honeslty don't know and I am not going to speak for the Almighty. I will continue to pray, anoint with oil and lay hands on people and believe for their healing.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

Scripture defines it's own terms. Not you or me. I agree that 'proof' isn't 'persuasion'. I've said that before. The Holy Spirit takes the frailties of man and uses it for His glory in spite of us but that does not mean we are to think and argue in a way that is fallacious logically or philosophically. We are not to make the Gospel any more of an offense then it all ready is.

Why do you say the gospel is offensive?

1Co 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

Just so some will not forget. I hold that the Scripture is the inerrant word of God. It's just that so many hold to fallacious reasons and 'proofs' that are a mockery to the name of Christ. I deal with educated 'fools' on a daily basis and it pains me to hear the same old dishonest arguments brought as a defense of the Truth I hold dear. God deserves better.

RD,

What is your reason for believing the Bible to be the inerrant word of God? (I think I've read this thread in its entirety but I may have missed something). Is it because it lends cogency to the world around you? If that is why then I have to be like you and ask what makes it different from other "holy" books?

You have knocked down all the reasons we give you and you are now calling some arguements dishonest and God deserves better. Please share with us your reasons that we can judge likewise.

[OGIA]

Originally Posted by ReformedDave

I really don't understand how you think Scripture is subjective

I never said scripture is subjective. I said that how we use it and apply it is. You, too.

it's your method that I think is unbiblical.

You've criticized ("poked holes"), but I haven't seen anything constructive yet. How is my method unbiblical, and how is your's biblical?

If you want an in depth article on the subject here's one by my mentor. If you actually take the time to read it(I hope you do) you might understand where I'm coming from.

Site is blocked here at work. Why don't you just tell me where you're coming from?

[Michlow]

Originally Posted by Esther

Are you talking about the Bible or God?

If I may ask what kind of questions are you struggling with? Perhaps someone here may have an answer for you.

Ahhh...therein lies part of the problem. Having come to the realization that there have been no two people in the entire history of the mankind that believe exactly the same thing when it comes to spiritual matters. Ergo, the chances of any 1 person being 100% correct is a very very small percentage. Furthermore, anyone who claims to be 100% correct shows the most arrogance possible.

Going even further, everything that anyone tells me is immediately suspect, for I already know that they are wrong about something. Basically I am readily aware that anything anyone says, preaches, proclaims (what have you) to be true, is in fact only their opinion of truth.

[OGIA]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

You have knocked down all the reasons we give you and you are now calling some arguements dishonest and God deserves better. Please share with us your reasons that we can judge likewise.

Getting old, isn't it?


RD, do you consider yourself a theosophogist?

[Esther]

Originally Posted by Michi

Ahhh...therein lies part of the problem. Having come to the realization that there have been no two people in the entire history of the mankind that believe exactly the same thing when it comes to spiritual matters. Ergo, the chances of any 1 person being 100% correct is a very very small percentage. Furthermore, anyone who claims to be 100% correct shows the most arrogance possible.

Going even further, everything that anyone tells me is immediately suspect, for I already know that they are wrong about something. Basically I am readily aware that anything anyone says, preaches, proclaims (what have you) to be true, is in fact only their opinion of truth.

Well seems you have a problem here. You are right there is NO ONE that is 100% right all the time.

But the Bible does tell us there is wisdom in the counsel of many.

It seems to me you have you mind made up that what any says is wrong already since you say they are wrong about something. Well that is true as well. But IF you are really wanting answers they you ask and you pray about it and let God lead you to the truth. But first you have to have a LOVE for the TRUTH. Not what you want to hear or don't want to hear. Nor what tradition has always taught.

JMO

Good luck in finding your answers.

[Esther]

Originally Posted by ManOfWord

Here's the truth as I see it, Timmy. God's word definitely makes provision for healing. We pray, lay on hands and God heals. He is the healer, we are not. I have seen God perform amazing miracles when I have anointed with oil and prayed. I have also seen times when I have done the exact same thing and nothing apparently happened.

A lot of people believe they have answers as to why healings take place at times and not at others. NONE of those answers are definitive! Even those who take the "word of faith" approach in their churches still have just as many people get sick and die as do "non-word of faith" pentecostal churches. NO ONE has it figured out, even though they say they do. God is still God and we are not. He is the Healer and we are not. We are not responsible for healing, He is.

Why doesn't it happen more often? I honeslty don't know and I am not going to speak for the Almighty. I will continue to pray, anoint with oil and lay hands on people and believe for their healing.

Good answer as well.

Just as it is the will of God for all to be saved not all will be.