Remitted on the Cross or not?

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Adino, please quote me asserting forgiveness of the cross is furthered in personal acceptance or any other method, then we can continue.

Your use of the word appropriation gave me the impression you believed forgiveness of those sins remitted on the Cross takes place 'in the eyes of God' when one 'appropriates by faith' (whatever that means).

The crux of this discussion is when God sees our sins as having been forgiven, not when we do. In God's eyes, were our sins remitted forever on Calvary or only sometime after? If we must 'appropriate' the forgiveness of the Cross at faith or at baptism or whenever in order for God to see us as forgiven, then forgiveness did not take place on the Cross.

Does God see us as forgiven before we come to terms with this reality? I think, yes.

The world was freely reconciled to God by the death of Christ so that the world could be saved by the life of Christ. Having been reconciled by his death, we are saved by his life. The forgiveness of the Cross made way for repentance unto life. We 'experience' the forgiveness of the Cross in Christ's resurrected life.

Then everyone is saved, right now, even Hitler.

No. Man must pass from spiritual death into spiritual life by believing (John 3:15-16, John 3:36; John 5:24; John 6:40; John 6:47; John 11:25,26).

That is because THROUGH faith we receive the forgiveness of sins
Act 10:43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."

Act 13:38 Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything

Act 26:18 to open their eyes, so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.'

I wholly agree with all these.

Our conscience is purged, our heart is purified, we 'receive' the historic forgiveness of the Cross, we pass from death unto life when we believe. He that believes is no longer condemned, not because the sins taken to the Cross are no longer condemning to him, but because he is no longer calling God a liar by rejecting the testimony God gave of His Son.

Man comes into condemnation because of unbelief (John 3:15-16, John 3:36; John 5:24; John 6:40; John 6:47; John 11:25,26).

But, when we place our trust in the record God gave of his Son (i.e., the testimony of God) (1John 5:10-13) we pass from death unto life. To 'obey' the Gospel is to believe the report God gives of his Son (Romans 10:16). To believe (have faith in) the report is to set to seal that God is true (John 3:33). To reject the report in unbelief is to call God a liar (1John 5:10) and to invite his condemnation and wrath (John 3:18; John 3:36; John 16:8-9).

Have to teach a class tonight. Maybe I'll get a chance to address your other concerns later.

Anyway.... maybe I'll catch ya'll later.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

So the only sin that wasn't forgiven on the cross is unbelief?

I would say the sin unto death is unbelief.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Adino

Your use of the word appropriation gave me the impression you believed forgiveness of those sins remitted on the Cross takes place 'in the eyes of God' when one 'appropriates by faith' (whatever that means).

I said, those that believe baptism is essential for salvation do not believe they are adding to what God remitted on the cross (your first question, a logical fallacy) but believe they appropriate what God did on the cross when they are baptized. Thus I addressed that your questoin is a logical fallacy and then I answered for those that believe sins are forgiven at baptism.

Are you saying, that every human's record right now, in God's eyes are clean? That every human, even the unrepented are forgiven, even Hitler so that Hitler is clean?

The crux of this discussion is when God sees our sins as having been forgiven, not when we do. In God's eyes, were our sins remitted forever on Calvary or only sometime after? If we must 'appropriate' the forgiveness of the Cross at faith or at baptism or whenever in order for God to see us as forgiven, then forgiveness did not take place on the Cross.

What scripture are you using when you say everyone's sins, believers and unbelievers, are already forgiven?

Does God see us as forgiven before we come to terms with this reality? I think, yes.

Scripture?

The world was freely reconciled to God by the death of Christ so that the world could be saved by the life of Christ. Having been reconciled by his death, we are saved by his life. The forgiveness of the Cross made way for repentance unto life. We 'experience' the forgiveness of the Cross in Christ's resurrected life.

So to be reconciled is NOT to be saved? It mearly puts you in a position where you can be saved? But being forgiven is not being saved? Im trying to understand..even the unsaved are already forgiven, but not saved? Is that correct?

What saves us? Experiece or position? Are we positionally right with God before experiencing salvation? Or was the other brother correct that you are teaching universalism?

No. Man must pass from spiritual death into spiritual life by believing (John 3:15-16, John 3:36; John 5:24; John 6:40; John 6:47; John 11:25,26).

nobody denies that. That is beside the point

I wholly agree with all these.

Our conscience is purged, our heart is purified, we 'receive' the historic forgiveness of the Cross, we pass from death unto life when we believe. He that believes is no longer condemned, not because the sins taken to the Cross are no longer condemning to him, but because he is no longer calling God a liar by rejecting the testimony God gave of His Son.

What do you mean "receive"? And what difference does it make if in God's eyes we are already forgiven?

Man comes into condemnation because of unbelief (John 3:15-16, John 3:36; John 5:24; John 6:40; John 6:47; John 11:25,26).

But unbelief is a sin....yet God forgave that sin already.

Right. A Person that believes and trusts in God is saved, not condemned.

But, when we place our trust in the record God gave of his Son (i.e., the testimony of God) (1John 5:10-13) we pass from death unto life.

This is beside the point. The question is about forgiveness of Sins. You seem to suggest a person is forgiven of sins before they are saved?

To 'obey' the Gospel is to believe the report God gives of his Son (Romans 10:16). To believe (have faith in) the report is to set to seal that God is true (John 3:33). To reject the report in unbelief is to call God a liar (1John 5:10) and to invite his condemnation and wrath (John 3:18; John 3:36; John 16:8-9).

Obedience implies an action. You can't Obey unless you believe. Obedience follows Faith where ever it goes. Again this is all beside the point. We are discussing forgiveness of sins right? You are preaching to the chior now. We all agree unbelief is a sin.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Adino

I would say the sin unto death is unbelief.

How does one escape the sin unto death? Didn't God cover that on the cross?

[Adino]

Prax, there is a difference between being forgiven and being justified. Though Christ dealt with our sin, we do not receive justification until we believe.

Also, there is a difference between being forgiven and being made alive. God forgave in order that we might have life. We are not saved by being forgiven, we are saved by his life. We are saved when our spirit is quickened to new life.

Though mankind has been reconciled unto God, mankind has yet to be justified and born again. Though God has made peace concerning the sin imputed to Christ, man needs to be brought back from spiritual death by receiving the resurrected life of Christ.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Adino

Prax, there is a difference between being forgiven and being justified.

What is the difference? How can one be justified and not forgiven...ie your account is still full of sin.

Also, there is a difference between being forgiven and being made alive. God forgave in order that we might have life. We are not saved by being forgiven, we are saved by his life. We are saved when our spirit is quickened to new life.

I would say we are saved by both, but then again it depends on how one defines salvation. We are saved when we are forgiven AND made alive.

Though mankind has been reconciled unto God, mankind has yet to be justified and born again. Though God has made peace concerning the sin imputed to Christ, man needs to be brought back from spiritual death by receiving the resurrected life of Christ.

Reconciliation is something God accomplished on the cross through Jesus Christ but is still something that needs to be appropriated by us, through faith. He did the work, we accept it

2Co 5:18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Thus we are not already reconciled. He made the way available

[Praxeas]

Another question. Do believers need to do anything to receive forgiveness when they sin? OR is that already forgiven on the cross too?

[Praxeas]

bump

[pastorrick1959]

[Given that all our sin was reckoned to Christ.

Given that all sin reckoned to Christ was remitted prior to the resurrection, else he would not have been raised from the dead.

1) What further remission do we obtain in the waters of baptism which did not happen on the Cross?

2) Does the teaching of baptismal sin remission declare a disbelief in the sin remitting work of the Cross]

i am a little late on this topic i see .. not sure what all has been said .

we do not obtain more remision at baptism ,we habe there a washing away ,,from the sin,, the blood has been applied like at trhe brazen altar ,now we stand trhere a mess ,so we gfo to the water to cleanse like at the brazen laver..then we are able now to go into the holiest of holies..

yes preaching baptisamal reppentance would take away from the blood i feel ,for one because it is incorrect.the blood takes away the sin.

[Adino]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

What is the difference? How can one be justified and not forgiven...ie your account is still full of sin.

I would say we are saved by both, but then again it depends on how one defines salvation. We are saved when we are forgiven AND made alive.

Reconciliation is something God accomplished on the cross through Jesus Christ but is still something that needs to be appropriated by us, through faith. He did the work, we accept it

2Co 5:18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

Thus we are not already reconciled. He made the way available

I didn't say one could be justified and not forgiven, I said one could be forgiven but not justified. All who are justified are forgiven, yet not all who are forgiven are justified.

These are two very separate and distinct works of God: One is a work of remission performed on the Cross when Christ died, and the other is a work of justification when we believe.

The difference is in imputation -

Remission/forgiveness is where Jesus bears our sins. It is where our sins are imputed to him. God counted our sins against Christ and no longer against us. God 'laid on him the iniquity of us all' (Isaiah 53:6). God thought of our sins as belonging to Christ and 'made him to be sin who knew no sin' (2Corinthians 5:21). This took place on the Cross.

Justification is where Jesus' righteousness is imputed to us. Christ who was not a sinner was counted as a sinner because our sin was reckoned to him. Conversely, we who are not righteous by nature are counted as righteous because Christ's righteousness is reckoned to us. This takes place after the Cross, when we believe.

Let's look more closely at what happened on the Cross:

As I said, God imputed our sins to Christ - because of this, Christ needed to be freed from the sin imputed to Him. His death was the only way for this to be accomplished.... 'he that is dead is freed from sin' (Romans 6:7). Christ, who bore our sin, died and was made free from our sin imputed to him. He took our sin upon himself and gave up His life in order to have the sin imputed to Him forever taken away. He appeared to do away with sin once for all (Hebrew 7:27; Hebrews 9:26). The sin he bore was done away with at Calvary.

Being made free from the sin imputed to him, Christ was then raised from the dead. He was by the right hand of God exalted and received the promise of eternal life (Acts 2:33; Acts 2:37-39; Acts 13:32-33; 1John 2:25; James 1:12; Titus 1:2). Christ received the promise of eternal life having been freed from OUR sin which had been imputed to his account. The resurrection declared an accomplished remission of OUR sins on the Cross. The resurrection placed emphasis on Christ's words, "It is finished!"

Jesus Christ made reconciliation for the sins of the people (Hebrews 2:17; Daniel 9:24).

I posted earlier:

It is said reconciliation "describes the end of the estrangement, caused by sin, between God and humanity."

2Corinthians 5:18-21

And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Prior to the Cross God and man stood back to back.

The Cross reconciled the world unto God by remitting their sins. God now stands facing man who has his back to God unaware that God has removed their sins, i.e., the cause of estrangement.

We've been given the Good News of the reconciliation of the Cross and are to inform all men that God, who now stands facing him with open arms, has removed all cause of estrangement.

Man is to 'be reconciled to God' [i.e., experience reconciliation to God] by turning to God through faith in the Gospel (Good News) of reconciliation which happened on the Cross.

God and man who once stood back to back now stand in face to face fellowship...... all due to the reconciliation of the Cross.

Concerning being saved by his life:

Though reconciled by his work of remission on the Cross, we are saved by his resurrected life. It is by his resurrected life that our spirit is born of God. He that believes has life (John 3:15-16, John 3:36; John 5:24; John 6:40; John 6:47; John 11:25,26).

Prax, I'm going to let you have the last word on this. Things have become rather busy on my end. Thanks for sharing your thoughts .... I always enjoy our chats. God bless.