Why Is The "Christmas Spirit" So Different?

[Sabby]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Can a heathen be a brother?

that depends....nyuk, nyuk

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

I don't see the statements as contradictory. I am stating that there is a difference between saying that christmas is a pagan holiday and saying that christmas has a pagan origin. A small but relevant difference.

The reason I stick with the origins side is that one can make the statement "Christmas is a pagan holiday" and people can just say "No it's not" because the answer to that question is a matter of opinion in many minds.

But... I can say "The traditions of Christmas are adapted from pagan traditions that predate Christ" and when someone says "No they aren't" we have moved from opinion versus opinion to arguing against fact.

It is a more stable position to take as it is centered less on opinion and more on fact.

Therefore, even though they mean the same thing, I remove myself from the "Christmas is pagan" camp and pitch my tent in the "The practices, dates etc of Christmas are adapted from pagan rituals that predate Christ".

While those stances are, essentially, the same statements one is viewed more as opinion based and is therefore more open to personal interpretation while the other is viewed more often as a statement of fact and is not as widely viewed as something someone can just disagree with because they disagree with it.

I think that is more wise than saying it is pagan. And I agree "The practices, dates etc of Christmas are adapted from pagan rituals that predate Christ". But when the heart intends no such pagan concern nor worship, I see it as innocent as calling a name of the week. Again, it all boils down to WHY we do things.

[Sam]

Over the years I've belonged to several different organizations. Back in the early 1960's I was licensed with a group called The Church of Jesus Christ, Pentecostal Faith (CoJCPF). Our Presiding Bishop was G.R. Brock. He has been dead since 1968. I only belonged to that organization a couple of years and let my license lapse when I started going to an ALJC Church. In 1971 the CoJCPF merged with the CoJC (the original group chartered in 1927 by Mark Lawson).

Bishop Brock had some things he took a "strong" stand on. One was that he would never ordain a minister who "looked at tv" but I got a license and I preached for him at his church and I had a tv in my home. One was the idea that communion wasn't really communion unless fermented wine was used. To him, grape juice was just a substitute for the real thing. I remember him telling me about a church in our organization down in SE Kentucky that was in a "dry" county and he was going to bring them some home made wine so they could do communion properly. I told him they would arrest him for "rum running." He said, "I'll just tell them it's the blood of Jesus." I told him, "Then they'll lock you up in an asylum." I don't know if he ever followed through on this or not.

Another thing he felt very strongly about was Christmas Trees. He believed that Jeremiah chapter 10 was talking about Christmas trees. The church was pastored by an older man and his son was also a preacher. There were several family members in the church there in Corbin, KY. They went without a Christmas Tree for some time, then one year the one son (who was also a preacher) decided they were going to have a Christmas tree that year. So, he and several family members went out into the woods to find a tree and bring it home. They found a good one, brought it home, and set it up. The elder preacher condemned them as heathens for violating the Scriptures. The younger preacher had a good answer from the Scriptures. He pointed out that the Scripture says,

1 Hear ye the word which the LORD speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:
2 Thus saith the LORD, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
5 They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

He said, "Look what the Bible says there in verse 3. It says, 'ONE cutteth a tree out of the forest... with an axe.'" He went on to say, "There wasn't just ONE person here that went into the woods and cut down that tree. SEVERAL of us went out there and cut it down and brought it here."

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I think that is more wise than saying it is pagan. And I agree "The practices, dates etc of Christmas are adapted from pagan rituals that predate Christ". But when the heart intends no such pagan concern nor worship, I see it as innocent as calling a name of the week. Again, it all boils down to WHY we do things.

One big difference is that we can't control name of a day, but we can control what customs/practices we partake of.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by missourimary

I haven't kept up on the thread, but it seems the main underlying issue here is that some of us don't consider Christmas a pagan holiday and others do. Therefore, when verses are used that talk about "observing days" some say they didn't observe pagan days and others say it's widely known as a Christian holiday or that they are celebrating or commemorating Jesus' birth.

I don't think that, with that difference of opinion underlying the discussion, that everyone will ever come to agreement on this topic. It may be one of those things that we should agree to disagree on.

Yeah, but it's a forum annual decembers tradition.

[Truthseeker]

Is there other pagan customs we can christianize as long as we don't intend to worship a false God?

Can a converted buddhist continue with buddhist customs as long as his heart is not worshipping buddha?

How long out from pagan intent is a custom harmless? 1 year? 5 years? 10 years?

[*AQuietPlace*]

See, I just don't buy the argument that because something at one time had a pagan root that we can't participate in the current incarnation of the event. I don't have a problem with taking something bad and making something good out of it. Life is continually evolving and changing. Always. Time changes, culture changes, styles change, traditions change. Even Christmas as we know it now will probably be completely different in 100 years. We have so many traditions that had 'pagan' roots. The way we do funerals, funeral wreaths and flowers, the calendar, etc. etc. etc. It's not whether or not something at some point in time crossed paths with a pagan. It's why are WE doing it?

[houston]

Feel inspired to wear feathers in my hair and chant as I hop around in a circle... ...at church. All for the glory of the Lord!!

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Is there other pagan customs we can christianize as long as we don't intend to worship a false God?

Can a converted buddhist continue with buddhist customs as long as his heart is not worshipping buddha?

How long out from pagan intent is a custom harmless? 1 year? 5 years? 10 years?

I don't know many buddhist customs..... but let's say that he sat cross-legged to meditate, and that was part of his custom. If he can, as a Christian, sit that same way and pray to GOD.... yeah, no harm in that custom.

If a custom isn't in and of itself sinful, I don't see why it can't be transformed into worship for God.

[*AQuietPlace*]

Originally Posted by houston

Feel inspired to wear feathers in my hair and chant as I hop around in a circle... ...at church. All for the glory of the Lord!!

I've seen that in church a hundred times! Been to a conference lately??