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  #1211  
Old 05-30-2017, 01:20 PM
n david n david is offline
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Re: More on Skirts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pliny View Post
And I could just as equally say that according to you and other's, once a person "accepts Christ" they have license to sin.
About that "accepts Christ" nonsense ... I don't believe it. Water and Spirit. New birth experience. Acts 2:38. 3-stepper. All of the above (except for that "accepting Christ" nonsense.) Try again.

Nor do I believe a Christian has a license to sin - not even newborn ones.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pliny View Post
The OT is abrogated and of no further use and should never be read or studies.
Who ever said that? An extreme exaggeration. I have argued that if you're going to claim Deuteronomy 22:5 is applicable for today, you better also follow the other dietary laws and customs, including the feasts and Passover. But I don't believe anyone has claimed what you posted here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pliny View Post
The only thing that matters is, well, nothing because they will never be held accountable for sin.
Pretty sure Aquila believes there are wages to sin. I do.

You believe women wearing pants is a sin. You've spent dozens of pages and probably close to a hundred posts or more proclaiming how Godly women do not wear pants. Yet you refuse to connect the dots and follow the path from sin to death. If you believe women wearing pants is a sin, then they are (if they do not repent and begin wearing only dresses) headed for an eternity in hell.

Why is this so hard for you?
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  #1212  
Old 05-30-2017, 01:22 PM
Pliny Pliny is offline
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Re: More on Skirts

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Originally Posted by Pliny View Post
Not surprising. Some loose an argument and then make wild eyed accusations that conservatives don't care if a woman gets raped. Since they cannot refute the argument they must resort to slanderous hatred.

The Bible STILL reveals that godly men wore pants and godly women did not.

For example,
(Dan 3:21 KJV) Then these men were bound in their coats, their hosen, and their hats, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.

Quickly, here are two translations that render this passage as:
Dan 3:21 (ABP) Then those men were shackled with their pantaloons,G4552.1 G1473 and tiaras, and leggings, and their garments. And they were thrown into the midst of the [2furnace 3of fire 1burning],

(Dan 3:21 ERV) So Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego were tied up and thrown into the hot furnace. They were wearing their robes, pants, cloth caps, and other clothes.

Then, there is the LXX. These ancient Hebrew and Greek scholars translated the Hebrew into Greek as:

Dan 3:21 τοτεG5119 ADV οιG3588 T-NPM ανδρεςG435 N-NPM εκεινοιG1565 D-NPM επεδηθησανV-API-3P συνG4862 PREP τοιςG3588 T-DPN σαραβαροιςN-DPN αυτωνG846 D-GPM καιG2532 CONJ τιαραιςN-DPF καιG2532 CONJ περικνημισιN-DPF καιG2532 CONJ ενδυμασινG1742 N-DPN αυτωνG846 D-GPM καιG2532 CONJ εβληθησανG906 V-API-3P ειςG1519 PREP μεσονG3319 A-ASM τηςG3588 T-GSF καμινουG2575 N-GSF τουG3588 T-GSN πυροςG4442 N-GSN τηςG3588 T-GSF καιομενηςG2545 V-PMPGS

H5622
סרבּל (Aramaic) (LXX – σαραβαροις)
sarbal
Dictionary of the Targumim, Talmud Bavli, Talmud Yerushalmi and Midrashic Literature, Marcus Jastrow, 1022a – Pers. Trousers.

Jastrow is one of the foremost celebrated scholars and this dictionary renders the word in question as pants.


Dan 3:27 And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellors, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats (σαραβαρα LXX) changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.

Daniel 3:27 (WEB) The satraps, the deputies, and the governors, and the king's counselors, being gathered together, saw these men, that the fire had no power on their bodies, nor was the hair of their head singed, neither were their pants changed, nor had the smell of fire passed on them.


LXX+
Dan 3:27 [3:94] καιG2532 CONJ συναγονταιG4863 V-PMI-3P οιG3588 T-NPM σατραπαιN-NPM καιG2532 CONJ οιG3588 T-NPM στρατηγοιG4755 N-NPM καιG2532 CONJ οιG3588 T-NPM τοπαρχαιN-NPM καιG2532 CONJ οιG3588 T-NPM δυνασταιG1413 N-NPM τουG3588 T-GSM βασιλεωςG935 N-GSM καιG2532 CONJ εθεωρουνG2334 V-IAI-3P τουςG3588 T-APM ανδραςG435 N-APM οτιG3754 CONJ ουκG3364 ADV εκυριευσενG2961 V-AAI-3S τοG3588 T-NSN πυρG4442 N-NSN τουG3588 T-GSN σωματοςG4983 N-GSN αυτωνG846 D-GPM καιG2532 CONJ ηG3588 T-NSF θριξG2359 N-NSF τηςG3588 T-GSF κεφαληςG2776 N-GSF αυτωνG846 D-GPM ουκG3364 ADV εφλογισθηG5394 V-API-3S καιG2532 CONJ ταG3588 T-NPN σαραβαραN-NPN αυτωνG846 D-GPM ουκG3364 ADV ηλλοιωθηV-API-3S καιG2532 CONJ οσμηG3744 N-NSF πυροςG4442 N-GSN ουκG3364 ADV ηνG1510 V-IAI-3S ενG1722 PREP αυτοιςG846 D-DPM

Ancient Greek to English Dictionary
σαραβαρα
A loose trousers worn by Scythians, Antiph.201; also = Aramaic sarbālîn, LXX, Thd.Da.3.27 (cf. 21). (Prob. Persian shalvâr or shulvâr (braccae).)
http://lsj.translatum.gr/wiki/%CF%83...B1%CF%81%CE%B1

Thus, there are 2 Biblical passages that affirm that the Hebrew young men wore pants. There are absolutely NO Biblical passages that demonstrate godly women wore pants.

Multiple translators affirm they were wearing pants and the dozens of Hebrew and Greek scholars that translated the Hebrew into Greek used the word denoting loose trousers. Certainly these scholars knew more about the passage than anyone today, especially those on this forum.

Zephaniah 1:8 adds to Deu. 22:5 by stating:
(Zep 1:8 KJV) And it shall come to pass in the day of the LORD'S sacrifice, that I will punish the princes, and the king's children, and all such as are clothed with strange apparel.

God says He will punish all that are clothed with strange apparel. So what is "strange apparel"?
Apparel that did not belong to their sex. In other words, women were wearing men's clothing and men were wearing women's clothing. A clear reference to Deu. 22:5.

Barnes is interesting as well. Concerning Matthew 5:40 he states:
(Mat 5:40 KJV) And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.

The word "coat" is the Greek word chitōn G 5509. This is an inner garment but does not specifically refer to pants. However, Barnes includes the idea of pants because of the Levitical priesthood.

Barnes
Coat - The Jews wore two principal garments, an interior and an exterior. The interior, here called the “coat,” or the tunic, was made commonly of linen, and encircled the whole body, extending down to the knees. Sometimes beneath this garment, as in the case of the priests, there was another garment corresponding to pantaloons.

It can be argued whether the garments worn by the priests were pants or not but here Barnes argues that they correspond to pants.

No matter how you look at it, pants were worn by godly men not godly women. Due to this, the detractors have made outrageous and monstrous attacks against me and other conservatives. They owe an apology for this but as can be seen - no apology has been, and likely never will be, offered. Why is this? Is it because they hate the conservative stand more than they care about truth and justice? Is it "just" to argue that conservatives do not care about women? I am disgusted by such a cowardly charge.
Bump.
Apparently some have not read this or they have selective memory.
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  #1213  
Old 05-30-2017, 01:22 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: More on Skirts

In our fellowship, if a man or woman were to be caught in a cross dressing, gender bending, fetish... they'd be called on the carpet to repent. If he or she didn't, we'd deny them fellowship. It's an abomination. There isn't going to be no, "well they're an immature Christian", business. It's an abomination.

Last edited by Aquila; 05-30-2017 at 01:25 PM.
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  #1214  
Old 05-30-2017, 01:30 PM
n david n david is offline
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Re: More on Skirts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pliny View Post
Bump.
Apparently some have not read this or they have selective memory.
Quick, look over here!

Are women who wear pants committing sin and abomination?

If they are, and they do not repent and begin, post haste, to wear only dresses, then they will be condemned to hell for eternity. If you believe pants on women is sin and abomination, why would you disagree with this?

Are people who lie, commit adultery and murder others committing sin and abomination?

If they are, and they do not repent, then they will be condemned to hell for eternity. Do you disagree with this?
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  #1215  
Old 05-30-2017, 01:32 PM
n david n david is offline
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Re: More on Skirts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
In our fellowship, if a man or woman were to be caught in a cross dressing, gender bending, fetish... they'd be called on the carpet to repent. If he or she didn't, we'd deny them fellowship. It's an abomination. There isn't going to be no, "well they're an immature Christian", business. It's an abomination.
Wait ... do you mean you believe there are consequences to sin?
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  #1216  
Old 05-30-2017, 01:35 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: More on Skirts

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Originally Posted by n david View Post
Wait ... do you mean you believe there are consequences to sin?
Of course. We believe in grace and patience when dealing with modesty. But when it comes to sins that are abominations, we don't play. Cross dressing, homosexuality, the occult, etc. are forbidden. One is expected to repent immediately and denounce their sin. Of course, I don't remember ever dealing with a cross dresser. We did have a gay man who was rather effeminate gather with us. We expected him to be celibate and to seek healing and deliverance. When it became obvious that he had entered another active homosexual relationship, we shunned him.

Last edited by Aquila; 05-30-2017 at 01:38 PM.
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  #1217  
Old 05-30-2017, 01:39 PM
Pliny Pliny is offline
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Re: More on Skirts

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Originally Posted by n david View Post
This gets better and better! Where is it, specifically, in the Bible where there is this "allowance" of sin for newborn Christians as opposed to mature Christians? Here I thought sin was sin and, when finished, it results in death. What is the timeframe for this, because I'm sure you've met (as I have met) Christians who have been in church decades who are spiritually infantile. So what are the terms, conditions and timeframe for your theology?
So... according to you a person must be absolutely perfect to be saved or it does not matter what they do because they now have a "get out of hell free card" because they have been what? Baptized? If this is what you believe, no wonder your "theology" is so messed up.

Apparently, you have never read John's writings.
(1Jn 2:1 KJV) My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Of course this is dependent upon repentance.
(Act 2:38 KJV) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

To repent is to, according to RWP:
Repent ye (metanoēsate). First aorist (ingressive) active imperative. Change your mind and your life. Turn right about and do it now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by n david View Post
Prove it. You have nothing besides Priests wearing underwear and 3 Jewish guys wearing what may possibly be hose. Neither are pants. Nor is there any mention in the Bible of women wearing only dresses.
Possibly?
I guess we have to do this again.
See the post I bumped up for you again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by n david View Post
Isn't sin sin? Is there a newborn Christian version vs a mature Christian version of sin - where one is saved from hell, but the other burns in it?
Am I speaking in parables? Why is it so hard to understand a simple concept?


Quote:
Originally Posted by n david View Post
Again, with the noncommittal.

If sin is sin
and sin = death, hell and the lake of fire

And if women wearing pants = sin

Then women wearing pants = death, hell and the lake of fire.

Man up and just admit it. That's what you believe. Stop with this, "Well, there are various levels of Christians and what's allowable versus what's not allowed, depending on the length of time put in and whether you're mature or newborn. But God is the judge."
You do not believe their are mature Christians and immature Christians?
Apparently you have never read the book of Hebrews either.
(Heb 5:11 ESV) About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.
(Heb 5:12 ESV) For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food,

Yes. God is the judge.

Quote:
Originally Posted by n david View Post
Who are you, Joel Olsteen? Can't you just state what you believe, instead of giving this kind of pussyfooted, weak, pathetic answer?
I am most certainly not Joel Osteen. BTW, I have stated what I believe. Sorry it did not come with pictures and crayons.

Based on your posts, I am left with certain observations concerning your beliefs.
1) You believe there is no such thing as sin once a person is in church. They are free to do whatever they want.
2) There is no such thing as a mature Christian or immature Christian. Ostensibly, because maturity does not matter - people have a "get out of hell free card" and sin does not matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by n david View Post
The verse you have placed all your hopes in calls it an abomination. That's the same charge as lying, adultery, murder and other sins.

I mean, from your post, no sin is actually a sin, and it depends on whether you're a newborn or mature Christian as to whether your sin is allowed.
Beuna suerte with that.
Once again I am left believing that you either think no sin matters because people have a "get out of hell free card". Perhaps, you are trying to justify "fudging" (lying) on your taxes? I don't know. I am certain that God is a just God and He will judge righteously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by n david View Post
Are you a mature Christian, Pliny?
Now all this must simply be an obfuscation to ignore the Bible. Since you and others are silent on providing evidence to support your justification, all you can do is ask silly questions. Anything to divert attention from the real issue. Where does the Bible demonstrate godly women wore pants?

The SILENCE has been deafening...
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  #1218  
Old 05-30-2017, 01:41 PM
Pliny Pliny is offline
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Re: More on Skirts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
Sounds to me like you're weak on an abomination.
Sounds to me like you and others are weak on sound Biblical hermeneutics. Well, in this case, any hermeneutic.
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  #1219  
Old 05-30-2017, 01:44 PM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: More on Skirts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pliny View Post
Sounds to me like you and others are weak on sound Biblical hermeneutics. Well, in this case, any hermeneutic.
You have no scripture specifically condemning pants on a woman.

You only have cultural examples of men wearing pants and argue that since women wearing pants isn't mentioned it was never done. Although, Barnes and others indicate that pantaloons were sometimes worn by both men and women as part of their inner garments.

You never answered the question. Do you believe that women were required to be naked under their tunics?

Last edited by Aquila; 05-30-2017 at 01:56 PM.
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  #1220  
Old 05-30-2017, 01:52 PM
Pliny Pliny is offline
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Re: More on Skirts

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Originally Posted by n david View Post
About that "accepts Christ" nonsense ... I don't believe it. Water and Spirit. New birth experience. Acts 2:38. 3-stepper. All of the above (except for that "accepting Christ" nonsense.) Try again.

Nor do I believe a Christian has a license to sin - not even newborn ones.


Who ever said that? An extreme exaggeration. I have argued that if you're going to claim Deuteronomy 22:5 is applicable for today, you better also follow the other dietary laws and customs, including the feasts and Passover. But I don't believe anyone has claimed what you posted here.
If you would like to discuss the dietary laws and the keeping of the Passover etc. start a new thread. There are Biblical reasons for my teaching on these subjects.


Quote:
Originally Posted by n david View Post
Pretty sure Aquila believes there are wages to sin. I do.

You believe women wearing pants is a sin. You've spent dozens of pages and probably close to a hundred posts or more proclaiming how Godly women do not wear pants. Yet you refuse to connect the dots and follow the path from sin to death. If you believe women wearing pants is a sin, then they are (if they do not repent and begin wearing only dresses) headed for an eternity in hell.

Why is this so hard for you?
It is not hard for me. I have never said women wearing pants is acceptable. That is your's other's un-biblical opinion. You would think that after all the pages and posts you would understand my position. I guess not. I teach and preach. After that, it is between the people and God. People must accept personal responsibility for what they do. Apparently you do not believe this. It is true, godly women never wore pants in the Bible. You and other's have not and cannot provide any evidence in which they did. Therefore, all you can do is obfuscate and try to build straw man arguments or make ad-hominem attacks because all the evidence you have is found in a vacuum.
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