Let's see what 'Spiritual Wisdom' we really have Available...

[Carpenter]

Originally Posted by rrford

What if the ceremony is necessary to the cultural value? And what if it is not necessarily created but scripturally mandated?

Well, in some cases maybe, however there is absolutely no scriptural precedent or mandate to describe the situation that occurred above, regardless of the fact that it was described as a deep seemingly spiritual event. This leads me to believe that the cultural values and tennants transcended scripture.

For that matter, I could make any activity spiritual if I were surrounded by my bretheren, speaking in tongues...like watching the Superbowl perhaps. (This is an extreme example of course meant to get under the skin of those very tight-skinned )

This was a beautiful occasion in which I am sure many were blessed but don't go so far as to say it was a biblical event. It was the manifestation of a culturally religious value being validated by a spiritual event.

I am not saying there is anything wrong with it, as long as it is recognized for what it is.

What happens if a piece of gum is caught in a poor dears head? I can see a bunch of teenagers just testing the slope and precedent.

[Carpenter]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Whether or not I completely agree with someone on an issue, I respect that they have not only their conviction but that they have a right attitude pertaining to that conviction. And even more so when they recognize the spirit of the law vs the letter of the law.

It really would not be worth the effort to reply to Cooper..glad you didn't waste your time

Um...were you talking about me? I'm not Cooper, he is sitting over on the left side me here.

I like what you said in your first paragraph pertaining to a single event, however, it is creating another cultural episode for the UPC for precedent and that has vast consequences. See above...

Originally Posted by Ferd

Steadfast, I am sometimes amazed when I see God take some form of bad and turn it to such good. I dont know why because it happens more often than we really think.


I just wish more people here understood.

Originally Posted by Pianoman

Steadfast, What a wonderful story about how the situation was handled!

Thanks so much.

I can honestly say that I wasn't worried about it from my congregation's perspective in that I've spent much time teaching them not only spiritual guidelines but the principles behind our standards. I've taught them to love the ministry, love each other and, chiefly, love God and the Word He gave us.

While I've got a good size church I've had the opportunity to Pastor Churches 4 times larger. Only God (or a team of wild horses on steriods) could pull me away from this precious people. God is incredibly good to me.

The real question to me was dealing with my own scriptural perspective (which was fairly easy) and assisting this precious Sister in dealing with her heartfelt conviction.

The move of God yesterday seemed 'custom fitted' for this precious Sister even though her 'situation' wasn't remotely in my mind until the last 5 minutes. I actually already had the people standing to dismiss them when the Holy Ghost flooded back in... and by His own might brought peace to this precious sister.

What an incredible God.

Originally Posted by Falla39

Thank YOU, Dear Lord Jesus,

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in

Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free

from the law of sin and death.

So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

One thing about it, when we get in the Spirit, and the Spirit

takes over, it will do the leading and give direction and then

there will be no condemnation.

I went to bed praying that God would "deliver" this dear lady as

He would see fit to do it! Appears He had already took care of it.

In my mind as I read Bro. Steadfast's account of the SISTERS in

the church gathering around this sister for three hours as she was

in the Spirit, reminded me of mid-wives assisted in a "delivery". It

may not have seemed to be a "baby" but just wait. It may have

just been the "delivery" of a "Revival Child". God knows!

Some through the water, some through the flood,
Some through the fire, but all through the blood.
Some through great trials, but God gives a song,
In the night seasons and all the day long!!
God leads His dear children along.

Prayer and fasting and God's Word brings about something

that nothing else can!!!

Incidentally, when I was younger, I remember one or two of

my sisters going to bed with gum in their mouths only to awake

with it in their hair. The end resulted in seperating what could

be, and clipping only the affected part.

May God give all of us, of His Wisdom and Understanding. His Word

tells us if we lack (need more) wisdom God giveth liberally but He

wants us to ask. Ask, seek, knock! He has plenty of whatever we

need!!!!

Blessings,

Falla39

Falla39,

Love your posts. No guile, no bitterness and no agenda outside of promoting a Godly mind.

Blessings on you and yours.

[Malvaro]

imo.... regarding this "medical" described situation.... i would say that she should have that option available to her without receiving grief from the church.... God knows the intent of the heart and that it would be done out of necessity and not out of rebellion to God's Word....

if the lady had a tragic head-injury or brain trauma requiring surgery, would the doctors/family think twice about cutting her hair in preparation for a surgery??? Of course not!!! no different, her hair would have been cut to ensure self-preservation and the lady would have the opportunity to let it regrow at a later time....

this is a trivial, nit-picking matter.... if she feels guilt about it, she can pray a prayer of repentance for peace of mind.... God is not going to turn her away.... if we think that God would withhold forgiveness regarding this, we need to reconsider everything we believe....

(on a side note, i would normally be totally against a lady trimming/cutting her hair)

[Carpenter]

Originally Posted by Steadfast

Falla39,

Love your posts. No guile, no bitterness and no agenda outside of promoting a Godly mind.

Blessings on you and yours.

Well, at least be clear...I'll help you out.

"Carpenter, hate your posts, full of guile, bitterness and agenda laden, always promoting something other than a Godly mind."

I always like trying to get past the high minded "floaty" stuff in order to see the true heart or foundation of the matter...regardless of what people may think or how I am judged.

Half to most of the time, I keep what I really believe very close to the vest...those who know me can attest to that.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

If you have exhausted all avenues to untangle it...then there really isn't any other option. I mean it's not like she is committing fornication or adultery. She is not robbing anyone. She is not cutting it as an act of rebellion against her Head....right?

Agreed, at least with regard to her limited choices. If, however, cutting her hair is sin (I'm not convinced it is), then it is no different than fornication or adultery in that it is rebellion against God. The problem with the kind of rationalizing we all try to do is that we so often forget that God will NEVER allow someone to be put in a situation where the only way out is to commit sin.

[Falla39]

Originally Posted by Malvaro

imo.... regarding this "medical" described situation.... i would say that she should have that option available to her without receiving grief from the church.... God knows the intent of the heart and that it would be done out of necessity and not out of rebellion to God's Word....

if the lady had a tragic head-injury or brain trauma requiring surgery, would the doctors/family think twice about cutting her hair in preparation for a surgery??? Of course not!!! no different, her hair would have been cut to ensure self-preservation and the lady would have the opportunity to let it regrow at a later time....

this is a trivial, nit-picking matter.... if she feels guilt about it, she can pray a prayer of repentance for peace of mind.... God is not going to turn her away.... if we think that God would withhold forgiveness regarding this, we need to reconsider everything we believe....

(on a side note, i would normally be totally against a lady trimming/cutting her hair)

Bro. Malvero,

Men don't THINK like women, they don't LOOK like women, they do not

not have the EMOTIONS of women. God made us different!! And for

different purposes. What might seem like nit-picking to you, may not

to one who is in the situation. I doubt those around this one, her dear

sisters, were condemning her. There were most likely supporting her,

in HER decision, whatever it was. Perhaps they were more like mothers

in Israel (Zion), the church, praying with those coming to birth. They

could not deliver that one but they were there travailing WITH them.

We may not feel our sisters pain or our brothers problem, but we can

weep with them that weep (sympathize, emphize or have compassion),

and we can pray and intercede for them until victory (deliverance) comes.

No, I don't think the sisters were judging her but to say if she

feels guilt she can pray a prayer of repentance makes me think you

really so not understand a woman's feelings or convictions because

you are NOT a woman!!! I have never been some places. I may have

seen pictures of that place but I would be foolish to try to convince

you to go somewhere I had never been. You wouldn't listen if you

knew I was only telling you what the weather was like, etc. how blue

the water was, how wonderful it made you feel to be there, if I had

never been there!

Bro. this is not a response of condemnation, but we just don't know

about everything, everywhere, everybody!!!! In your life you have been

many places (experiences) that I could not relate to. By the same token

I have been places you could not relate to, but are just as real and

genuine as your experiences in life!!! Just some thoughts from

your older sister in Christ!!! I believe there is room for all of us, in the

family of God!


Blessings,

Falla39

[Malvaro]

Originally Posted by Falla39

Bro. Malvero,

Men don't THINK like women, they don't LOOK like women, they do not

not have the EMOTIONS of women. God made us different!! And for

different purposes. What might seem like nit-picking to you, may not

to one who is in the situation. I doubt those around this one, her dear

sisters, were condemning her. There were most likely supporting her,

in HER decision, whatever it was. Perhaps they were more like mothers

in Israel (Zion), the church, praying with those coming to birth. They

could not deliver that one but they were there travailing WITH them.

We may not feel our sisters pain or our brothers problem, but we can

weep with them that weep (sympathize, emphize or have compassion),

and we can pray and intercede for them until victory (deliverance) comes.

No, I don't think the sisters were judging her but to say if she

feels guilt she can pray a prayer of repentance makes me think you

really so not understand a woman's feelings or convictions because

you are NOT a woman!!! I have never been some places. I may have

seen pictures of that place but I would be foolish to try to convince

you to go somewhere I had never been. You wouldn't listen if you

knew I was only telling you what the weather was like, etc. how blue

the water was, how wonderful it made you feel to be there, if I had

never been there!

Bro. this is not a response of condemnation, but we just don't know

about everything, everywhere, everybody!!!! In your life you have been

many places (experiences) that I could not relate to. By the same token

I have been places you could not relate to, but are just as real and

genuine as your experiences in life!!! Just some thoughts from

your older sister in Christ!!! I believe there is room for all of us, in the

family of God!


Blessings,

Falla39

ummmmm.... in case you didn't catch it.... i was FOR giving this sister the option based on her unique situation.... i didn't proclaim to understand her feelings but i was suggesting that we are *nit-picking* if we are not willing to give her this choice.... it would be tramatic enough for her to even to have to consider this decision, much less the weight of figuring out whether it might be right or wrong.... she needs to know that her church is 100% behind her with whatever decision she makes....

i'm not sure how my post was misunderstood....

Originally Posted by Carpenter

Well, at least be clear...I'll help you out.

"Carpenter, hate your posts, full of guile, bitterness and agenda laden, always promoting something other than a Godly mind."

I always like trying to get past the high minded "floaty" stuff in order to see the true heart or foundation of the matter...regardless of what people may think or how I am judged.

Half to most of the time, I keep what I really believe very close to the vest...those who know me can attest to that.

I somehow hear the echoes of a Carly Simon song that says, "Your so vain, you probably think this song is about you..."

For the record, I don't hate your posts. I have always figured you played devil's advocate on certain issues pertaining to various standards (you seem to give it away in certain infrequent posts). I technically like your reasoning on some issues.

As for 'floaty', high minded stuff? Trust me, what I am is what I am 24/7. In the words of that spiritual powerhouse Popeye, "I am what I am" and if one doesn't care for that, well... I'm not intimidated too easy and really don't give it a lot of concern. Obviously I, like everyone else, want to be liked but it's not the fuel that drives my actions.

There are many times I don't respond to certain posts - from most anyone - because it wouldn't be worth the 'strife' it 'gendered.' In this instance, however, I simply thought a compliment to Falla would be in order in that through every post I've ever seen her offer us it's been done with a kind spirit.

We need more of that.

I feel awkward that I have to justify a complimentary post to someone it wasn't even addressed to but I still maintain I was justified in offering her my compliment as it was a true statement.

Carp... I'm going to like you in spite of yourself.