The Initial Physical Evidence

[Joelel]

Originally Posted by samp

Is TB someone on this forum?

Does anyone know any other Pentecostals who do not embrace the doctrine of initial physical evidence?

The Church of God don't believe it's the evidence but they don't baptize in Jesus name either.Jesus name baptism is the correct way.

[Joelel]

Originally Posted by MrsMcD

I was taught that you do not have the holy spirit unless you have spoken in tongues. Anybody else?

Yes many of us were taught that and i was but the word don't teach it.

[Joelel]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Felicity,

If the baptism of the Holy Spirit is evidenced by speaking in tongues what do you call the type of infilling a person would have when they have the Spirit of Christ in them at initial faith and repentance? bedauce without the Spirit of Christ we do not belong to him. So if the baptism of the Holy Spirit is subsequent to salvation then somehow one must have the Spirit prior, I'm just not sure there is scripture to prove that.

The Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Christ is the same.The word Christ means anointed and we are anointed by the Holy Spirit (Ghost)

[Joelel]

Originally Posted by Felicity

ACOP's Official Statement of Faith

We believe in:

1) The verbal inspiration of the Holy Scriptures.

2) The eternal existence of one true God who is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

3) The Saviour of men, the Lord Jesus Christ, conceived of the Holy Spirit, born
of the Virgin Mary, very God and very man.

4) The creation, test and fall of man, as recorded in Genesis; His total spiritual
depravity and inability to attain to divine righteousness.

5) The Gospel of the Grace of God, how that Christ died for our sins, was buried,
and rose again the third day for our justification.

6) The salvation of sinners by Grace, through faith alone in the perfect and sufficient
work of Christ on our behalf upon the cross of Calvary excluding all human merit.

7) Water baptism of believers by immersion in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

8) The baptism of the Holy Spirit as an experience subsequent to salvation, with the
scriptural evidence, namely, speaking in tongues.

9) The gifts of the Spirit as enumerated in I Corinthians, being exercised and practiced
as manifest in the early Church.

10) The Lord’s Supper, as a memorial for believers.

11) The healing of the body by Divine Power, or Divine Healing in many aspects as
manifested in the early Church.

12) The eternal life of the believer and the eternal punishment of the unbeliever.

13) The Spirit-filled life of separation from the world, and the perfecting of holiness
in the fear of God as an expression of Christian faith.

14) The reality and personality of Satan and demons.

15) The reality and ministry of holy angels.

16) The personal return of the Lord Jesus Christ for His Church.

17) In the sanctity of marriage, as a life long exclusive commitment between one man
and one woman.

The word eternal and everlasting means an age.If we have the age of life then we don't have the age of death.The age of death is when our spirit dies.Out spirit don't burn with out end if were not saved as many teach,but it dies a death. The second death.Rev.020:012And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

020:013And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 020:014And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.(cease to exist)

020:015And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire

Rev.002:011He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death (cease to exist)

James005:020Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death,(cease to exist) and shall hide a multitude of sins

Rom.006:021What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.(cease to exist) 006:022But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

006:023For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Luke20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die(cease to exist)any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection

[Praxeas]

Hi Joel. When you want to bold something, Hilite it by RIGHT clicking the mouse and dragging it to select the text. Then hit "B".

And Welcome to the forum

[Truly Blessed]

I have made this point before. The Bible does not say that tongues is the evidence, it says it is a sign. The evidence is the fruit of a Spirit filled life. This is why I have a problem with the idea that only when someone speaks with other tongues do they have the Spirit's presence. I see the fruit of the Spirit in their lives even though they never spoke with tongues.

Another thought to consider; Peter told the multitude on the Day of Pentecost that they needed to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remisssion of sins and "ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"

So, if a person repents and is baptized in the name of Jesus Christ then according to Peter they shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. If speaking in tongues is the initial sign and having done what they were commanded to do, why is God withholding this gift from them? He's not doing what He promised to do. Why isn't the person coming up out of the water speaking in tongues?

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

I have made this point before. The Bible does not say that tongues is the evidence, it says it is a sign. The evidence is the fruit of a Spirit filled life. This is why I have a problem with the idea that only when someone speaks with other tongues do they have the Spirit's presence. I see the fruit of the Spirit in their lives even though they never spoke with tongues.

Another thought to consider; Peter told the multitude on the Day of Pentecost that they needed to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remisssion of sins and "ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"

So, if a person repents and is baptized in the name of Jesus Christ then according to Peter they shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. If speaking in tongues is the initial sign and having done what they were commanded to do, why is God withholding this gift from them? He's not doing what He promised to do. Why isn't the person coming up out of the water speaking in tongues?

Eggzactly TB...only one reason..they are not good enough for God yet !!

Do we make God and Peter a liar when we recite the words of Acts 2:38 and when folks come up NOT speaking in tongues, even after we wiggle their chin and do all the stuff we do to wet people in a tank.

We tell them, hey you almost got the Holy Ghost.

That IS NOT what the word says in ACTS 2:38 It says YOU WILL recieve the
gift of the Holy Ghost.

It does not say YOU MIGHT or ALMOST WILL GET IT

Everyone we baptize that believes and has repented recieves the spirit of Christ, the Holy Ghost into their life. Sometimes they even are blessed with the gift of tongues.

I am glad for the ones God gives other manifestions to, as Paul said He would in 1 Cor. 12:8

I'm especially glad for those he manifests thru with the word of knowledge and word of wisdom. And prophecy is a blessed manifestion of God's spirit to see working in people.

verse 39 say's it's a promise. I am standing on tha promise.

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

How did the Apostles know the Samaritans had NOT received the Holy Ghost?

They did not. because of their unbelief, that a Samaritan could be saved, God let them hear a sign they could relate to, to prove to the unbelieving Jews he had indeed added to the church these Samaritan DOGS.

God is soveriegn, He can do what he wants.
Because we have seen in a few accounts where some new believers spoke in tongues, we figure it will always happen that way.

Truth is our begging and tarrying or cajoling God to speak in tongues IS IN NO WAY even close to what we see in the Acts accounts of this happening.

God fell on all. it was not being sought after by those that recieved.

Not one was told..Hey nice try..wow stammering lips..whewwwHooo you almost got it.

Again over 18 different words get translated into our one English word receive or received

The Samaitans "recieved/lambano" manifested objectively what they allready possessed.

If Phillip was doing it wrong in Samaria, why then did God send him to the Ethopian Eunuch next and have him repeat the same salvation experience he had with the Samaritins. he brought them to faith thru the hearing of the word and baptized them, then God sent or took Phiipip on his way. The Eunuch went on his way "rejoicing" (with joy..a fruit or evidence of the spirit) not speaking in tongues.

I am not against tongues. I just do not see it anymore as an proof of salvation.

[freeatlast]

Originally Posted by J-Roc

FAL, have you noticed that a common scripture that is used is Joel 2 and yet they seemingly ignore all the manifestations that are described in the passage they quote:


"And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

I will show wonders in the heavens
and on the earth,
blood and fire and billows of smoke."

Fulfilled on the Day of Penteost. God baptized all flesh on earth. We do not find the language, "get the baptism of the Holy Ghost" , in the Epistles or even later in the book of Acts.

Paul makes one refernce to being baptized by the Holy Ghost in a testimonial refering back to the day of Pentecost, when God baptized or poured out his spirit on all the earth. The fulfilment of Joels prophecy took place only once.

By that one pouring out, God made availagle to all flesh ( Jew Gentile Samaritan) his spirit indwelling in the lives of ALL who would gladly accept the gospel message He would send his followers to preach.

[ChTatum]

I may not be as liberal as I thought......