Calling all PAJCers: When does Justification and Remission Happen?

[stmatthew]

Sabellius,

Given the definition of remission is so close to that of Justification, why do none of the leading scholars believe that justification occurs at remission of sins?

From Acts 2:38.....

Remission - aphesis {af'-es-is}


1) release from bondage or imprisonment

2) forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty

[JN Anderson]

Originally Posted by stmatthew

Sabellius,

Given the definition of remission is so close to that of Justification, why do none of the leading scholars believe that justification occurs at remission of sins?

From Acts 2:38.....

Remission - aphesis {af'-es-is}


1) release from bondage or imprisonment

2) forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty

STM:

I do not believe that Justification and remission are synonomous. I am a little confused as to how some came to believe this. Remission is, clearly, different than Justification. They are different theological concepts with different meanings and directions, i.e. one is declared to be and the other is declared NOT to be.

Remission involves a pardoning or discharge of a sin debt or penalty. Justification is something that God does at the point of faith. It is his declaration of righteousness although not the impartation of righteousness.

I believe remission can be analogized like this: A prisoner released from prison, or forgiven, has his record of sin or iniquity discharged. The legal record is now withdrawn. Repentance is the visceral, inward turning of man from one direction to another (towards God).

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Sabellius

STM:

I do not believe that Justification and remission are synonomous. I am a little confused as to how some came to believe this. Remission is, clearly, different than Justification. They are different theological concepts with different meanings and directions, i.e. one is declared to be and the other is declared NOT to be.

Remission involves a pardoning or discharge of a sin debt or penalty. Justification is something that God does at the point of faith. It is his declaration of righteousness although not the impartation of righteousness.

I believe remission can be analogized like this: A prisoner released from prison, or forgiven, has his record of sin or iniquity discharged. The legal record is now withdrawn. Repentance is the visceral, inward turning of man from one direction to another (towards God).

Good post Sab. I agree 100%.

I'm amazed at some of the misunderstanding and misapplication of these very basic principles and aspects of salvation doctrine.

[Felicity]

Originally Posted by Sabellius

In the end I believe much of this is semantics. I do not like the designations however because I am of the view that Justification occurs at the point of faith and not, as Bernard feels, at the full demonstration of saving faith (i.e. New Birth fully attained). The bible explicitly says:

Romans 4:3 "For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." NKJV (c.f. Genesis 15:6)

And I agree with you!

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Sabellius

Sam:

The Justification aspect was recently diced around at the 2003 Symposium between David Bernard (author, in large part, of the AOF) and Daniel Seagraves. I believe that it will soon be reworded. Also, the text above does not, IMO, seem to say that Justification occurs at repentance. It explicitly says, as does Scripture, that Justification is by faith.

I agree with you. I pointed this out to Bernie Gillespie in email. He brushed it off

[Truly Blessed]

Originally Posted by Sabellius

STM:

I do not believe that Justification and remission are synonomous. I am a little confused as to how some came to believe this. Remission is, clearly, different than Justification. They are different theological concepts with different meanings and directions, i.e. one is declared to be and the other is declared NOT to be.

Remission involves a pardoning or discharge of a sin debt or penalty. Justification is something that God does at the point of faith. It is his declaration of righteousness although not the impartation of righteousness.

I believe remission can be analogized like this: A prisoner released from prison, or forgiven, has his record of sin or iniquity discharged. The legal record is now withdrawn. Repentance is the visceral, inward turning of man from one direction to another (towards God).

This issue has to be considered in the light of the atonement. There is a difference between atonement and pardon. The fact is, the atonement did not actually accomplish the forgiveness of sins of a single individual, but simply made possible and justifiable such forgiveness. We were provisionally saved at Calvary, but not actually and personally. The death of Christ was an expiation for all , but an acquittal for none. When each individual comes to Christ for salvation, God, by a free act of His mercy and grace, on the merits of the blood, must pardon that person who asks forgiveness, accomplish their adoption, (to which the Holy Spirit bears witness), and effect by the Spirit the instantaneous change of nature (heart) known as regeneration.

Understanding this we know that a person is justified so that they can be sanctified. IMO Paul makes it clear when he writes in Romans 3:24 , "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:" that justification is rooted in the atonement and is represented in that initial free act of mercy and grace.

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:" (Romans 5:1)

It is this peace with God, along with the witness of the Spirit with our spirit, that truly assures us of this new life we have entered into by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

This issue has to be considered in the light of the atonement. There is a difference between atonement and pardon. The fact is, the atonement did not actually accomplish the forgiveness of sins of a single individual, but simply made possible and justifiable such forgiveness. We were provisionally saved at Calvary, but not actually and personally. The death of Christ was an expiation for all , but an acquittal for none. When each individual comes to Christ for salvation, God, by a free act of His mercy and grace, on the merits of the blood, must pardon that person who asks forgiveness, accomplish their adoption, (to which the Holy Spirit bears witness), and effect by the Spirit the instantaneous change of nature (heart) known as regeneration.

Understanding this we know that a person is justified so that they can be sanctified. IMO Paul makes it clear when he writes in Romans 3:24 , "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:" that justification is rooted in the atonement and is represented in that initial free act of mercy and grace.

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:" (Romans 5:1)

It is this peace with God, along with the witness of the Spirit with our spirit, that truly assures us of this new life we have entered into by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Oustanding as always Bishop. Are we to believe then if a person comes to Christ for salvation not only are they justified ... there sins are remitted?

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Sabellius

STM:

I do not believe that Justification and remission are synonomous. I am a little confused as to how some came to believe this. Remission is, clearly, different than Justification. They are different theological concepts with different meanings and directions, i.e. one is declared to be and the other is declared NOT to be.

Remission involves a pardoning or discharge of a sin debt or penalty. Justification is something that God does at the point of faith. It is his declaration of righteousness although not the impartation of righteousness.

I believe remission can be analogized like this: A prisoner released from prison, or forgiven, has his record of sin or iniquity discharged. The legal record is now withdrawn. Repentance is the visceral, inward turning of man from one direction to another (towards God).

I too agree with you Sabellius ... however if we are justified are we now not acquitted. Doesn't redemption pay the price for our sin record?

[Steve Epley]

Originally Posted by Truly Blessed

This issue has to be considered in the light of the atonement. There is a difference between atonement and pardon. The fact is, the atonement did not actually accomplish the forgiveness of sins of a single individual, but simply made possible and justifiable such forgiveness. We were provisionally saved at Calvary, but not actually and personally. The death of Christ was an expiation for all , but an acquittal for none. When each individual comes to Christ for salvation, God, by a free act of His mercy and grace, on the merits of the blood, must pardon that person who asks forgiveness, accomplish their adoption, (to which the Holy Spirit bears witness), and effect by the Spirit the instantaneous change of nature (heart) known as regeneration.

Understanding this we know that a person is justified so that they can be sanctified. IMO Paul makes it clear when he writes in Romans 3:24 , "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:" that justification is rooted in the atonement and is represented in that initial free act of mercy and grace.

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:" (Romans 5:1)

It is this peace with God, along with the witness of the Spirit with our spirit, that truly assures us of this new life we have entered into by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

TB surprizingly I am certainly in accord with nearly every word you have written here with the exception of remission of sins I believe it is there man is justified and declared righteous. Repentance and remission of sin imputes our sins to the sin bearer and His righteousness is imputed to us.

[SDG]

Great quotes from Crakjak and Felicty ....

Originally Posted by crakjak

I don't see anything added to faith in Romans 5.1, to be justified and to have peace with God. This is the gate, friends everything else proceeds because one has entered the gate, JESUS CHRIST.

We should not burden new believers with more than is necessary to get started, faith establishes right relationship with God. Like a new born child let them grow, TRUST the comforter to lead and to guide, as they are nurtured by the Word and the love of the body of Christ.

Originally Posted by Felicity

Sanctification is an ongoing process. It starts with repentance.

Justification also takes place at repentance. It takes place by faith ... by appropriating what Christ did for us at Calvary.