Gino Jennings On Soul Sleep

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Wrong, Paul elsewhere identifies we are to be with the Lord in the resurrection, not prior. Therefore 2 Cor 5 is speaking of that event, not an intermediate state.

Like here in the wider context of the verses in question.

2 Cor. 4:13-14

13We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; 14Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Like here in the wider context of the verses in question.

2 Cor. 4:13-14

13We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; 14Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you.

Presenting us in resurrection speaks of completion of redemption, having immortal body as well as soul and spirit. This does not exclude a presence with Jesus in glory before that. Eph 5 says we are presented to God upon Salvation when we are washed in baptism, long before the resurrection as well.

[mfblume]

I only want truth. I'm not fighting for a belief just so I'm not wrong. If you can show me your belief in the word I'll accept it. But I can't see your thoughts there so far. But that was a good thought you had, Michael.

[Michael The Disciple]

MBlume

Never does the bible put the word “soul” beside the word “sleep” in its writings. Never. Soul-sleep is as unbiblical as the word trinity. And the SOUL that departs from the mortal body at death to be present in heaven with Jesus awaits the resurrection to indwell the immortal body, while the mortal body sleeps. It’s called a sleep, because when we currently sleep at night we shall wake up again. This picture is illustrating how the body will sleep and be inactive at death, but will get up again when it is changed into an immortal body. It is not talking about the soul whatsoever.

The term soul sleep is used simply because the doctrine of the resurrection of THE DEAD, has been labeled as such. If one understands the soul as A PERSON the truth is revealed.

It is dead PERSONS that sleep.

Immortal soul doctrine teaches the PERSON OF JESUS CHRIST.....never died for our sins!

Shocking and unbelievable but true! They teach ONLY the body of Jesus died.

In so they deny the gospel of Christ.

Psalms 53:10-12

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

The real Messiah or Christ is prophesied to experience the death of HIS SOUL. If Jesus soul never died HE WAS NOT THE MESSIAH.

No doubt many of them don't MEAN to deny the gospel but remember, many Trinitarians do not MEAN to deny the oneness of God.

As stated earlier the only way they can make this doctrine work is if they can get people to MENTALLY INSERT something into verses that is not there.

Take for instance the foundation doctrine of the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.

Heb. 6:1-2

1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

You will note what Paul DID write in verse 2. The RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.

But immortal soul devotees MENTALLY INSERT something different. When they speak of this doctrine they almost always say "the resurrection of "THE BODY".

In doing so they switch the meaning from the dead, as in persons, to simply dead bodies.

This has been historically very effective for them. It blinds the disciple by inserting a thought into the doctrine of the resurrection that is NOWHERE in the text.

They wind up putting immortal soul as a foundation doctrine and demoting the true resurrection of the dead to only the body. So tho Paul says NOTHING in the foundation doctrine of Christ about souls going to Heaven at death they make this deception into the truth.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

The term soul sleep is used simply because the doctrine of the resurrection of THE DEAD, has been labeled as such. If one understands the soul as A PERSON the truth is revealed.

It is dead PERSONS that sleep.

Immortal soul doctrine teaches the PERSON OF JESUS CHRIST.....never died for our sins!

Shocking and unbelievable but true! They teach ONLY the body of Jesus died.

In so they deny the gospel of Christ.

Psalms 53:10-12

10Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

11He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

The real Messiah or Christ is prophesied to experience the death of HIS SOUL. If Jesus soul never died HE WAS NOT THE MESSIAH.

No doubt many of them don't MEAN to deny the gospel but remember, many Trinitarians do not MEAN to deny the oneness of God.

As stated earlier the only way they can make this doctrine work is if they can get people to MENTALLY INSERT something into verses that is not there.

Take for instance the foundation doctrine of the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.

Heb. 6:1-2

1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

You will note what Paul DID write in verse 2. The RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD.

But immortal soul devotees MENTALLY INSERT something different. When they speak of this doctrine they almost always say "the resurrection of "THE BODY".

In doing so they switch the meaning from the dead, as in persons, to simply dead bodies.

This has been historically very effective for them. It blinds the disciple by inserting a thought into the doctrine of the resurrection that is NOWHERE in the text.

They wind up putting immortal soul as a foundation doctrine and demoting the true resurrection of the dead to only the body. So tho Paul says NOTHING in the foundation doctrine of Christ about souls going to Heaven at death they make this deception into the truth.

I already quoted James in saying the body is "dead" without the spirit. James distinctly says the BODY and identifies that which died as the BODY in association with dead And I already quoted 2 Cor 5:8 to show souls do go to heaven without the body at death. You have to take my explanation and take the verse and show why I am wrong about it in order to convince me you are correct.

[peter83]

Sorry but . Scripture says that the soul does dwon on "Hades" until judgement and the spirit goes back to God.
Also Jesus went on Hades.
we know from the story of the reach man and the poor Lazarus ,that both went to Hades. But Lazarus was with Abraham from the other side and the rich man was in a bad place .
After the resurrection (some people say) that the good place of Hades is now in the sky ,with God. I dont know that but have in mind:
A spirit or a soul or both if it is in the "sky" that does not mean resurrection. The Resurrection is when the spirit-soul and body are back to life!!!!!
Paul did not said "i just prefer to sleep" but ...

Phil.1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh [is] more needful for you.
So Spirit goes to God that is why Apocalypses says to the dead saints :
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they [were], should be fulfilled.


Jesus said to the thief on the cross "today you will be with me in paradise"
why? Because Jesus and the thief went to Hades. But not in the place of damnation ,instead they went down with Abraham and all the saint souls.
(Now there are 2 possibilities . One is that the souls are at Hades and the spirits back to God, or that after resurrection of Jesus the souls at Hades went up to God. So may be the paradise after Resurrection id up in the 3d sky.
Notice that God is not in any 3rd or 7nth sky atoll!!!!!! God is Above all skies!!!!!!!!

[Michael The Disciple]

Peter

Paul did not said "i just prefer to sleep" but ...

Phil.1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh [is] more needful for you.

Well yes Paul said that but in the context of the epistle to those very same people just two chapters later he lets them know EXACTLY when he would be with the Lord.

Phil. 3:10-11

10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

He tells those same people he is doing everything he does that he might attain to WHAT? Dying and going to Heaven? No.

THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD!

Not the resurrection of THE BODY.

HE HIMSELF.......the person Paul, did everything he did so HE could have part in the resurrection.

[peter83]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Peter



Well yes Paul said that but in the context of the epistle to those very same people just two chapters later he lets them know EXACTLY when he would be with the Lord.

Phil. 3:10-11

10That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death; 11If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

He tells those same people he is doing everything he does that he might attain to WHAT? Dying and going to Heaven? No.

THE RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD!

Not the resurrection of THE BODY.

HE HIMSELF.......the person Paul, did everything he did so HE could have part in the resurrection.

yes resurrection is when the spirit ,soul and body come back to life.
You die and you go to the Lord or in the place of the dead souls. "Sleeping".
You are not at HEAVEN. until new earth and new heavens and until your soul connects with the new body nobody is in heaven>
God is not God of dead but of alive persons. (now how is this sleeping life you have until the judgment or resturaction i dont know but i know that is "which is far better" than be here on earth.

Notice also ,Jesus went and preached to the dead! 19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
He preach to alive spirits!!!!
6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Peace to you.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I already quoted James in saying the body is "dead" without the spirit. James distinctly says the BODY and identifies that which died as the BODY in association with dead And I already quoted 2 Cor 5:8 to show souls do go to heaven without the body at death. You have to take my explanation and take the verse and show why I am wrong about it in order to convince me you are correct.

Nobody is saying that the body is alive without the spirit. But you are implying ONLY the body is dead without the spirit.

Scripture speaks of the dead as being the people that are dead, not JUST their bodies.

Flesh was animated by spirit, and the result was "a living soul". The soul was not alive until flesh was joined with spirit. When spirit and flesh are separated, the PERSON dies, and is no longer a LIVING SOUL.

In 1 Cor 15, Paul treats extensively of the subject of resurrection, and not once does he mention any intermediate state of disembodied consciousness in heaven. His teaching is not JUST about the raising of the body, but of the PERSON. in fact, his point has to do with hope. He says if the dead are not raised, we have no hope and are still in our sins.

But this is untrue, IF conscious bliss in heaven in a disembodied intermediate state is correct. If dying and going to heaven is real (prior to resurrection), then a lack of resurrection wouldn't be so bad. As I stated before, the vast majority of Christians expect to die and go to heaven. Most don't even think about any actual bodily resurrection.

But Paul clearly tied our hope, and immortality, to the resurrection. This is different than what is preached across most pulpits concerning our hope. Usually, it is "go to heaven at death". Paul had ample opportunity to mention a supposed intermediate state, but did not. When people speak and teach about hope for the dead, they do not fail to mention the intermediate state if that's what they believe.

Paul also taught that the time when we would be with the Lord is the resurrection. He does not say anywhere that we would be with the Lord BEFORE resurrection. 2 Cor 5 does not speak of being with the Lord before the resurrection, that is an assumption imported into the actual text. He said his expectation and desire is to be out of the mortal body and IN THE RESURRECTION BODY. So when he then afterward speaks of being absent from the body, and present with the Lord, he is speaking of the same thing, not introducing a NEW subject.

Where does Paul EXPLICITLY teach a conscious intermediate state? Nowhere.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Nobody is saying that the body is alive without the spirit. But you are implying ONLY the body is dead without the spirit.

Scripture speaks of the dead as being the people that are dead, not JUST their bodies.

Flesh was animated by spirit, and the result was "a living soul". The soul was not alive until flesh was joined with spirit. When spirit and flesh are separated, the PERSON dies, and is no longer a LIVING SOUL.

In 1 Cor 15, Paul treats extensively of the subject of resurrection, and not once does he mention any intermediate state of disembodied consciousness in heaven. His teaching is not JUST about the raising of the body, but of the PERSON. in fact, his point has to do with hope. He says if the dead are not raised, we have no hope and are still in our sins.

But this is untrue, IF conscious bliss in heaven in a disembodied intermediate state is correct. If dying and going to heaven is real (prior to resurrection), then a lack of resurrection wouldn't be so bad. As I stated before, the vast majority of Christians expect to die and go to heaven. Most don't even think about any actual bodily resurrection.

But Paul clearly tied our hope, and immortality, to the resurrection. This is different than what is preached across most pulpits concerning our hope. Usually, it is "go to heaven at death". Paul had ample opportunity to mention a supposed intermediate state, but did not. When people speak and teach about hope for the dead, they do not fail to mention the intermediate state if that's what they believe.

Paul also taught that the time when we would be with the Lord is the resurrection. He does not say anywhere that we would be with the Lord BEFORE resurrection. 2 Cor 5 does not speak of being with the Lord before the resurrection, that is an assumption imported into the actual text. He said his expectation and desire is to be out of the mortal body and IN THE RESURRECTION BODY. So when he then afterward speaks of being absent from the body, and present with the Lord, he is speaking of the same thing, not introducing a NEW subject.

Where does Paul EXPLICITLY teach a conscious intermediate state? Nowhere.

This nails it