Are Trinitarians Saved?

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Bro, there is no shutting up about this. No one has to know the minds of every Trinitarian, because we have book, chapter, and verse. Also quite frankly you can shut up yourself when you claim those things you wrote in your own list. Concerning Trinitarians being sincere, having faith? Bro, sincere about being wrong? Faith in mythology? The viking who sincerely believed in Odin, did his faith grant him entrance into Valhalla? No, same way the Trinitarian and his Trinitarian soteriology doesn't grant him a special place in heaven through his error.

The average Trinitarian does not think of things through a Oneness vs Trinity paradigm. When they were converted, they came to Jesus Christ, not the Trinity. They believe Jesus is God. The views of many who actually attempt to think in-depth on this subject actually mirror Oneness views. Trinitarian apologist Dr. James White laments that most Trinitarians are "modalists" without realizing it.

When a sinner in either a Oneness or Trinitarian church responds to the conviction he feels and falls in the altar repenting, he is most likely at that point thinking about Jesus as being "the Son of God". He does not understand all the in and outs of apologetics and theology. He just knows he needs to get right.

It really does seem some of you are making "perfect knowledge" a requirement for salvation.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Originalist

The average Trinitarian does not think of things through a Oneness vs Trinity paradigm. When they were converted, they came to Jesus Christ, not the Trinity. They believe Jesus is God. The views of many who actually attempt to think in-depth on this subject actually mirror Oneness views. Trinitarian apologist Dr. James White laments that most Trinitarians are "modalists" without realizing it.

When a sinner in either a Oneness or Trinitarian church responds to the conviction he feels and falls in the altar repenting, he is most likely at that point thinking about Jesus as being "the Son of God". He does not understand all the in and outs of apologetics and theology. He just knows he needs to get right.

Dr James White must of never met the trinitarians I have met. Which the lion share are dualists. The believe in a papa god and his son Jesus. There is always a twoism. Which makes up the majority. The other are tritheism like Mormons. Who believe in literally a true Trinity, which is three separate persons. My Roman and Eastern Orthodox relatives believe in there separate persons all day every day. Modalists within Trinitarianism? would fill a thimble. Because as fast as they can say Modalist, they would break it all down between two or three persons.

Originally Posted by Originalist

It really does seem some of you are making "perfect knowledge" a requirement for salvation.

Yet, please no offense, but it seems like you are making zero knowledge a given. Therefore God has to ditch His plan of salvation and just grade everyone on their faith in something close to a Biblical Jesus. Everyone will be judged on how sincere, faithful, kind, and (in the case of Dave Wilkerson, and Billy Graham) ecclesiastically famous they were?

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Dr James White must of never met the trinitarians I have met. Which the lion share are dualists. The believe in a papa god and his son Jesus. There is always a twoism. Which makes up the majority. The other are tritheism like Mormons. Who believe in literally a true Trinity, which is three separate persons. My Roman and Eastern Orthodox relatives believe in there separate persons all day every day. Modalists within Trinitarianism? would fill a thimble. Because as fast as they can say Modalist, they would break it all down between two or three persons.




Yet, please no offense, but it seems like you are making zero knowledge a given.

You know better, and my disappointment deepens. Obviously I believe some knowledge is required. Sharing the gospel is the impartation of knowledge. But to be made righteous before a holy God, one does not have to profess a belief in or possess an understanding of the workings of the Oneness doctrine. The Apostles in Acts preached "Jesus of Nazareth" being "exalted". It does take the illuminating influences of the indwelling Holy Ghost to begin grasping the dual nature of Christ. Again, why these exaggerated claims against me, brother? Zero knowledge?

Therefore God has to ditch His plan of salvation and just grade everyone on their faith in something close to a Biblical Jesus.

I defer to my comments above.^^^^^^

Everyone will be judged on how sincere, faithful, kind, and (in the case of Dave Wilkerson, and Billy Graham) ecclesiastically famous they were?

We are saved by washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost according to Titus 3:5. Anyone who is in Heaven dwells there because of that salvation, not for the reasons you list. And frankly, you have taken much of what Aquila has said way out of context.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Originalist

You know better, and my disappointment deepens. Obviously I believe some knowledge is required.

But, actually what is the bare minimum one really needs to know? Again, we are back to Aquila's ignorant bog harvesting serfs and dimwitted monks of the dark ages. People who had no real working knowledge of the Bible. Because supposedly the Roman Catholics didn't want anyone outside of Latin speakers to know what it contained. Leaving the stump ignorant dark age culture to rely solely on a few basic Bible stories to get by on. Doctrine would be what ever was churned out of the Roman Catholic feudal church. Today was a discussion brought up in service where Christians believe all sorts of myths concerning Jesus, and the Gospel. Soteriology is reduced to a confess with your mouth and sin every day because you are just a sinner. Jesus' atonement makes it all good, and you can never stop sinning because you have a veracious sinilled nature. Come as you are and stay as you are. So, it is not how much you are required to know, (because that seems like too much weight on the bar) so, how little can you know? Really, that seems to be the elephant in the room.

Originally Posted by Originalist

Sharing the gospel is the impartation of knowledge. But to be made righteous before a holy God, one does not have to profess a belief in or possess an understanding of the workings of the Oneness doctrine.

Oneness doctrine? My lands, I thought we are talking about what saith the Bible. I don't give a hoot, what Brothers Bernard and Segraves believe. I am supposed to make my calling an election sure. The devils believe in Oneness and they are shaking like puppies passing peach pits. So, I sure don't want demons having more perfect knowledge of truth than my family and I? Looking well to my going? Walking circumspectly. The word an illuminating force to my path? Wow, bro, there is sure a lot of warning and instruction going on in that book. Seems to me, that one needs to sharpen their pencil and start doing some arithmetic on how they are going to navigate that narrow way and enter through that cracked open door.

Originally Posted by Originalist

The Apostles in Acts preached "Jesus of Nazareth" being "exalted". It does take the illuminating influences of the indwelling Holy Ghost to begin grasping the dual nature of Christ. Again, why these exaggerated claims against me, brother? Zero knowledge?

Bro, I love you, please don't me this an us against you. Because it isn't about you or me. It is about what that book is actually saying and conveying. Jesus as well as Paul warns us to get it together. We are entering a new dark ages in our own world. Where we are heading towards a post Christain era. Where people believe in a flat earth, that life on this planet was created by the Anunnaki from the planet X. Where technology through smart phones is making television prohibition in old Pentecost look like baby diapers. Imagine a member of your church relaying to you the story of Moses, and how Moses was betrayed by Edward G Robinson and Vincent Price? How that there favorite Bible story is the little drummer boy? I'm not making this up, these were events which really happened. Hosea 4:6 sattes "my people are destroyed for a lack of knowledge," also look at Job 36:12, Proverbs 5:23, and Proverbs 10:21. The job and call of the ministry is to teach, preach, and baptize, that is the great commission. We must all do our part. Our job isn't to fill buildings with warm bodies and open wallets. Our job is what the Ethiopian eunuch was looking for a man who would instruct him on how to be saved. Trinitarians need a Peter to come down from Joppa to the house of Cornelius. To give the rest of the story.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Obviously, you don't. Noting heavier than your dinner fork and plate.



Looks like more than you. You angry little boy. So, upset that you left the Pentecostals and now stuck in some sort of made up religious limbo. All you have to go on is my eschatology. Heretical? You should talk when you make it up as you go along. Everything from soteriology and every other ology. Jason, you whacked out back in the no tithing days, and you are still caught in the vacuum of religion. What a laugh, no, you don't lift, and you don't have a clue who Jesus is.



Your demeanor is that of a pouty child who couldn't make it around the Apostolics so you created your own hybrid.




Oh, is that what you are doing? Is the above what you are doing Jason?

Because EB feels the need to totally denigrate me, and because in some ways I leave myself open to the body blows he lays on me, in that I as a oneness believer, attend a Trinitarian church, I feel it useful to the reader to give an explanation.

I was saved in January 2000 in a very conservative UPC church. I remained a member until 2008, when I moved 40 miles away and ended up joining the only apostolic church in the county*. It was an independent holiness church. Long story short after 2 years there, and preaching weekly and studying, and 10 years in the conservative apostolic movement, I came to the conclusion that a man was justified by faith, not by works, and not by the 3 step formula we are prone to affirm. I left this church in June of 2010 due to a change in view on soteriology, not theology. Essentially I went from being a “3 stepper” to a “1 stepper” (I don’t like these terms, but that will help clarify for those who read here).

Upon this happening, my previous pastor contacted me, visited my home, and we discussed doctrine and church philosophy for hours. He informed me he had turned in his card, and asked for my assistance with the church. I was pleased to help, and started July 2010. This seemed great. A oneness church, baptizing in Jesus name, affirming the gifts of the Spirit, and justification by faith. But after a year I was uncomfortable with the direction of that church. Not in core doctrine, but in philosophy. The church was moving very much into the seeker sensitive realm, along with a growing influence of TBN like prosperity gospel. Towards the end of my time there, it was said from the pulpit that the message that was being preached was the same as what Joel Osteen was preaching, just a different style of delivery. I was driving an hour to attend and help here, and I just couldn’t do it anymore. I felt like the benefits of having the right beliefs on paper didn’t outweigh what I was observing, and the shift the church was making.

So I decided to stop the 1 hour one way drive to church and join something local. This was July 2011. There was only one apostolic church in the entire county, and it was the one I had left in 2010 (the pastor preached against me for 6 months, and prophesied that I would lose my marriage, kids, and even later on, be killed by God), so this wasn’t an option, and there was still the soteriological issue. Thus we visited a few churches, but out there, it’s a few mainline denominations (Baptist of about 6 flavors, church of Christ, Methodist, and catholic) then several word of faith churches (this area is only about 30 miles from Kenneth Copeland headquarters), and a few seeker sensitive churches. Basically for anything even half conservative, you choose from fundamental Baptist or a Bible church.

Long store short, we choose the Bible church, in August 2012. It had a refreshing emphasis on Christ, His Word, and Christian living. I didn’t share that I had been in ministry. We just came to hear the Word, and be in a church somewhere. Again, to cut to the chase, after about 8 months there, the church had a split, the Calvinist group left, the non calvisinist, who were the original occupants of the building stayed. I stayed, and we worked out a statement of faith which I had much influence on. Because of the split we wanted it to be true to the Word of God, but allow freedom of conscious. (The split was because the Calvinist insisted everyone adopt a Calvinist view or be barred from being a member or in ministry). At this time I had not preached here, but had befriended the pastor. (I will post the statement of faith in the following post). The statement of faith was oneness in nature, and affirmed baptism in Jesus name. After this split, I began to fill in when the pastor would travel (he had a orphanage in India, and was working on a Chinese Bible translation). He traveled more and more often, and I began taking on more of a responsibility for the church. Over the course of a year it happened that I became pastor.

I pastored here for 3 years. April 2013 to April 2016. In the last year and a half we unexpectedly began to foster a 13 month old boy, then 6 months later his 4 year old brother was placed with us. The 4 year old had leukemia, and was undergoing chemo treatments. All of this was a major adjustment for our household, plus having a family, 2 teenage children, and a full time job. After about 10 months of having both boys, and not feeling like I could devote the necessary focus and energy on the church, I resigned the pastorate. (We did eventually successfully adopt both children, and it has been a great blessing to our home to have them here, and a ministry to the Lord, to raise them up to serve Him, considering their former circumstances).

We then had need to find a church, and we choose to drive again. We visited a UPC for several weeks, but I couldn’t feel comfortable joining because of a difference in soteriology. EB paints me as someone who hates the UPC, is mad and bitter, etc. The facts is, I left because of a doctrinal view, not personal reasons. If the UPC adopted justification by faith, or if I found a UPC church that allowed some freedom in this area, I’d seriously consider joining. The issue is doctrinal.

So then we tried another church, a well known oneness minister in the Fort Worth area who recently “left” the UC OP ranks. But after a couple of visits, I was concerned by the influence of the seeker sensitive movement, and the way that Bill Johnson and Steven Furtick are quoted as some type of church gurus. It may seem weird to some that I attend a Trinitarian church, but when the rubber meets the road, I’d rather have a strong Bible believing conservative church, where the Bible is exposited, and the focus is solely on the glory of God, than a oneness church that doesn’t even have a pulpit, but starbucks like table, and where Steven Furtick is an authority on church philosophy. Count me out.

So then in August of 2016 I ended up attending a Trinitarian Bible church. I continue to do so until this day, yet I am not a member of this church. I do agree with them on soteriology, and the inerrancy and authority of the Word, along with tithing, and holy living. I don’t agree with the Trinitarian doctrine, nor cessationism.

On March 1st, I moved back into the D/FW metroplex, and so my options for churches are going to be wide open. I would assume I can find a oneness church that believes justification by faith. But the problem is that, at least in my limited experience, there is a tendency of former oneness churches to actually go down the proverbial slippery slope, and they become uber charismatic, prosperity gospel, seeker sensitive, Bethel, Gateway, Lakewood knock offs with a hint of their former oneness theology in the background, and sadly, many times embrace a very worldly pseudo Christian culture. I am not interested in being a part of one of these type oneness churches, just to silence criticism.

So I write this to give a brief explanation of what I believe (oneness theology, justification by faith soteriology), show how inaccurate EBs constant barrage of insults are, and to give an explanation of why I go to church where I do.

Now then, I am quite comfortable allowing God to work all things out in my life according to His good purpose.
Doing so also has given me a lot of real interaction with both sides. I do find myself defending Trinitarians to oneness people, as I’ve come to know many true brothers and sisters who are Trinitarians. And I do find myself defending oneness people to Trinitarians, who are often quite uninformed of what oneness people truly believe.

I don’t believe either view point is going to cause a person to be condemned to hell. Both view points affirm one God. Now the Trinitarians can use language that borders on tritheism, and is quite unbiblical (councils of the trinity, referring to God as them, separate persons, etc), and oneness people can borderline heresy through denying the distinctions between Father and Son to the point Jesus’ prayers were just a façade, questionable views of the wills or nature of Christ, or even the divine flesh view. Within both trinitarianism and oneness there are errant views held, and neither view is monolithic. However, the common lay person on either side, affirms the basics of the faith, that there is one God, Jesus is the Son of God, fully human and fully divine, the Holy Spirit regenerates us, we must repent of our sins, and trust in the atonement and forgiveness of sins that Christ achieved for us through his perfect sinless life and subsequent substitionary sacrifice through death on the cross, and glorious bodily resurrection. That baptism is a form of obedience to Christ’s command as well as a public declaration of our union with Him, come what may. Most affirm the second coming of Christ, and the establishment of God’s eternal Kingdom wherein dwelleth righteousness. I personally, see no Biblical grounds,
to wholesale condemn all these people to hell.

Yet, EB and Steve Epley are quite quick to do so. You two are mortal men, how greatly you err in pronouncing certain damnation on these people. Don’t you have a shred of humility? Do you not have a sense of your own fallability? Or do you not consider the day of your own death drawing near? Do you even fear God, or must you usurp Him in pride and arrogance, placing yourselves hypothetically on the great white throne?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Jason B

Because EB feels the need to totally denigrate me, and because in some ways I leave myself open to the body blows he lays on me, in that I as a oneness believer, attend a Trinitarian church, I feel it useful to the reader to give an explanation.

I was saved in January 2000 in a very conservative UPC church. I remained a member until 2008, when I moved 40 miles away and ended up joining the only apostolic church in the county*. It was an independent holiness church. Long story short after 2 years there, and preaching weekly and studying, and 10 years in the conservative apostolic movement, I came to the conclusion that a man was justified by faith, not by works, and not by the 3 step formula we are prone to affirm. I left this church in June of 2010 due to a change in view on soteriology, not theology. Essentially I went from being a “3 stepper” to a “1 stepper” (I don’t like these terms, but that will help clarify for those who read here).

Upon this happening, my previous pastor contacted me, visited my home, and we discussed doctrine and church philosophy for hours. He informed me he had turned in his card, and asked for my assistance with the church. I was pleased to help, and started July 2010. This seemed great. A oneness church, baptizing in Jesus name, affirming the gifts of the Spirit, and justification by faith. But after a year I was uncomfortable with the direction of that church. Not in core doctrine, but in philosophy. The church was moving very much into the seeker sensitive realm, along with a growing influence of TBN like prosperity gospel. Towards the end of my time there, it was said from the pulpit that the message that was being preached was the same as what Joel Osteen was preaching, just a different style of delivery. I was driving an hour to attend and help here, and I just couldn’t do it anymore. I felt like the benefits of having the right beliefs on paper didn’t outweigh what I was observing, and the shift the church was making.

So I decided to stop the 1 hour one way drive to church and join something local. This was July 2011. There was only one apostolic church in the entire county, and it was the one I had left in 2010 (the pastor preached against me for 6 months, and prophesied that I would lose my marriage, kids, and even later on, be killed by God), so this wasn’t an option, and there was still the soteriological issue. Thus we visited a few churches, but out there, it’s a few mainline denominations (Baptist of about 6 flavors, church of Christ, Methodist, and catholic) then several word of faith churches (this area is only about 30 miles from Kenneth Copeland headquarters), and a few seeker sensitive churches. Basically for anything even half conservative, you choose from fundamental Baptist or a Bible church.

Long store short, we choose the Bible church, in August 2012. It had a refreshing emphasis on Christ, His Word, and Christian living. I didn’t share that I had been in ministry. We just came to hear the Word, and be in a church somewhere. Again, to cut to the chase, after about 8 months there, the church had a split, the Calvinist group left, the non calvisinist, who were the original occupants of the building stayed. I stayed, and we worked out a statement of faith which I had much influence on. Because of the split we wanted it to be true to the Word of God, but allow freedom of conscious. (The split was because the Calvinist insisted everyone adopt a Calvinist view or be barred from being a member or in ministry). At this time I had not preached here, but had befriended the pastor. (I will post the statement of faith in the following post). The statement of faith was oneness in nature, and affirmed baptism in Jesus name. After this split, I began to fill in when the pastor would travel (he had a orphanage in India, and was working on a Chinese Bible translation). He traveled more and more often, and I began taking on more of a responsibility for the church. Over the course of a year it happened that I became pastor.

I pastored here for 3 years. April 2013 to April 2016. In the last year and a half we unexpectedly began to foster a 13 month old boy, then 6 months later his 4 year old brother was placed with us. The 4 year old had leukemia, and was undergoing chemo treatments. All of this was a major adjustment for our household, plus having a family, 2 teenage children, and a full time job. After about 10 months of having both boys, and not feeling like I could devote the necessary focus and energy on the church, I resigned the pastorate. (We did eventually successfully adopt both children, and it has been a great blessing to our home to have them here, and a ministry to the Lord, to raise them up to serve Him, considering their former circumstances).

We then had need to find a church, and we choose to drive again. We visited a UPC for several weeks, but I couldn’t feel comfortable joining because of a difference in soteriology. EB paints me as someone who hates the UPC, is mad and bitter, etc. The facts is, I left because of a doctrinal view, not personal reasons. If the UPC adopted justification by faith, or if I found a UPC church that allowed some freedom in this area, I’d seriously consider joining. The issue is doctrinal.

So then we tried another church, a well known oneness minister in the Fort Worth area who recently “left” the UC OP ranks. But after a couple of visits, I was concerned by the influence of the seeker sensitive movement, and the way that Bill Johnson and Steven Furtick are quoted as some type of church gurus. It may seem weird to some that I attend a Trinitarian church, but when the rubber meets the road, I’d rather have a strong Bible believing conservative church, where the Bible is exposited, and the focus is solely on the glory of God, than a oneness church that doesn’t even have a pulpit, but starbucks like table, and where Steven Furtick is an authority on church philosophy. Count me out.

So then in August of 2016 I ended up attending a Trinitarian Bible church. I continue to do so until this day, yet I am not a member of this church. I do agree with them on soteriology, and the inerrancy and authority of the Word, along with tithing, and holy living. I don’t agree with the Trinitarian doctrine, nor cessationism.

On March 1st, I moved back into the D/FW metroplex, and so my options for churches are going to be wide open. I would assume I can find a oneness church that believes justification by faith. But the problem is that, at least in my limited experience, there is a tendency of former oneness churches to actually go down the proverbial slippery slope, and they become uber charismatic, prosperity gospel, seeker sensitive, Bethel, Gateway, Lakewood knock offs with a hint of their former oneness theology in the background, and sadly, many times embrace a very worldly pseudo Christian culture. I am not interested in being a part of one of these type oneness churches, just to silence criticism.

So I write this to give a brief explanation of what I believe (oneness theology, justification by faith soteriology), show how inaccurate EBs constant barrage of insults are, and to give an explanation of why I go to church where I do.

Now then, I am quite comfortable allowing God to work all things out in my life according to His good purpose.
Doing so also has given me a lot of real interaction with both sides. I do find myself defending Trinitarians to oneness people, as I’ve come to know many true brothers and sisters who are Trinitarians. And I do find myself defending oneness people to Trinitarians, who are often quite uninformed of what oneness people truly believe.

I don’t believe either view point is going to cause a person to be condemned to hell. Both view points affirm one God. Now the Trinitarians can use language that borders on tritheism, and is quite unbiblical (councils of the trinity, referring to God as them, separate persons, etc), and oneness people can borderline heresy through denying the distinctions between Father and Son to the point Jesus’ prayers were just a façade, questionable views of the wills or nature of Christ, or even the divine flesh view. Within both trinitarianism and oneness there are errant views held, and neither view is monolithic. However, the common lay person on either side, affirms the basics of the faith, that there is one God, Jesus is the Son of God, fully human and fully divine, the Holy Spirit regenerates us, we must repent of our sins, and trust in the atonement and forgiveness of sins that Christ achieved for us through his perfect sinless life and subsequent substitionary sacrifice through death on the cross, and glorious bodily resurrection. That baptism is a form of obedience to Christ’s command as well as a public declaration of our union with Him, come what may. Most affirm the second coming of Christ, and the establishment of God’s eternal Kingdom wherein dwelleth righteousness. I personally, see no Biblical grounds,
to wholesale condemn all these people to hell.

Yet, EB and Steve Epley are quite quick to do so. You two are mortal men, how greatly you err in pronouncing certain damnation on these people. Don’t you have a shred of humility? Do you not have a sense of your own fallability? Or do you not consider the day of your own death drawing near? Do you even fear God, or must you usurp Him in pride and arrogance, placing yourselves hypothetically on the great white throne?

How did you get saved in a "three stepper church"? What doctrine did you receive? It sounds like you are basically saying you got saved by accident, not really knowing what was going on? Is that even possible?

I mean, your view on salvation is now drastically different from what was preached to you, right? So how did you manage to get saved by the preaching of heresy? I'm just not understanding this.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

How did you get saved in a "three stepper church"? What doctrine did you receive? It sounds like you are basically saying you got saved by accident, not really knowing what was going on? Is that even possible?

I mean, your view on salvation is now drastically different from what was preached to you, right? So how did you manage to get saved by the preaching of heresy? I'm just not understanding this.

There is nothing to understand. Jason was confused then, and he is confused now. The people who leave the Apostolic movement and now have the supposed greater understanding? Can’t help themselves from posting on forums to show their open wounds. All the while trying to find more disgruntles to help lick those wounds. When challenged they write long posts to show us that they were once just like us. Sadly it doesn’t help their case but only show how confused, and agenda seeking they always were. Jason Badejo doesn’t get it, but believes everyone needs their eyes open like his? My lands, please re-read his post, does it sound like illuminated vision? Or does it sound like someone with hard feelings who can’t get past his past. Jason, move on, the more you post the more you prove you are toast.

[houston]

I think that you are mischaracterizing Jason. Just as many mischaracterize you.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Esaias

How did you get saved in a "three stepper church"? What doctrine did you receive? It sounds like you are basically saying you got saved by accident, not really knowing what was going on? Is that even possible?

I mean, your view on salvation is now drastically different from what was preached to you, right? So how did you manage to get saved by the preaching of heresy? I'm just not understanding this.

Same way anyone gets saved, by the work of the Spirit opening my eyes to my own sinfulness, the righteousness of God in condemning me to hell, my own hopelessness and beggarly condition, and I repented of my sons, and trusted in Christ. That's how I was saved.

Now I was also told to be baptized a certain way, and as a repentant sinner, I couldn't get in the water fast enough. Then I was told to seek the Spirit which I did. Then I was told to live a holy life, keep the standards, pay tithes, etc. Which I did, thinking that failure to do these things would jeopardize my salvation.

As years went by and I matured and came to realize that my salvation was all of Christ. If I must do xyz and continue doing xyz to "stay saved", then I was in fact trusting in my own self righteousness, not in Christ. As Paul said, I was a Pharisee of Pharisees, as Luther said "if a man could be saved by his own monkery, I was he", so if lining up a Pentecostal experience and strict standards was what necessary, few attained my level of faithfulness, obedience, and Pentecostalism.

But in time as the greatness of Christ's righteousness and the manifold effects of the atonement became clear to me, I trusted no more in myself, but only in Him. (This is what EB calls "confusion").

So, yes, I was saved when I repented and believed the gospel. Just because I grew in my faith, doesn't mean I wasn't saved in the first place. I would argue, that growth, maturity, and understanding are evidence of a continuing work of God.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

There is nothing to understand. Jason was confused then, and he is confused now. The people who leave the Apostolic movement and now have the supposed greater understanding? Can’t help themselves from posting on forums to show their open wounds. All the while trying to find more disgruntles to help lick those wounds. When challenged they write long posts to show us that they were once just like us. Sadly it doesn’t help their case but only show how confused, and agenda seeking they always were. Jason Badejo doesn’t get it, but believes everyone needs their eyes open like his? My lands, please re-read his post, does it sound like illuminated vision? Or does it sound like someone with hard feelings who can’t get past his past. Jason, move on, the more you post the more you prove you are toast.

Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.
John 9:41 KJV