Bringing Protest & Disruption To Church:

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Bro, Blume, you're making a judgment. She's family. She knows I'm a Christian and that I believe that homosexuality is a sin. Yet I've known her most of her life and I've always been there for her, through thick and through thin, when she's been right and when she's been wrong. I've always stood by her and shown her as much love as I would any in my family.

Brother, please read this carefully, and I often am terse and it sounds like I am sharp with people. But please let me get what I am saying across to you.

Sure, we need to be there to help people but we do not condone their gay weddings and wish their marriage the best when it's abomination to God.

I never made a judgment. God already judged it for us and laid out his judgment in the bible when he said it's an abomination.

Like I said, if John said do not even eat with false prophets nor bid them Godspeed, what would he say about attending a gay wedding and wishing them all the best?

In their minds, you are not wishing them "as persons alone" to have all the best, but you are wishing their gay marriage all the best success and blessings when you say that to them at their wedding.

As far as I am concerned you went further with gay people than what John told us not to do with those in another doctrine.

2 John 1:10-11 KJV If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: (11) For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

I believe you partook, not as though you were gay by any means, . . . but you celebrated their homosexuality. I think your only salvation in this is that was not your intention. But it is what it said to everyone. in activity of course, but you condoned it, although you may not think you did.

Jesus loved sinners, but he knew they were sinners and stood against their sin. He would not join in any celebrations of their sin. He ministered to harlots but not in their brothels. He sat with winebibbers but not while they were binging in a tavern.

We cannot attend a gay wedding and bid them all the best, because that is saying we hope their marriage is blessed and successful. What else would wishing them the best mean to them?

When she came out, she had talked to me first to see how she might get this off her shoulders in a way that wouldn't shock everyone into a frenzy. I sat next to her and was silent as she came out to family at a Thanksgiving. She even delivered the invitation to her wedding personally, explaining that she understood if I didn't want to come, but that it would mean the world to her if I was there. I may not approve of her life style choices, but I love her. I also love her companion, she's a good person. Do they need more of Jesus, you betcha. But they sure aren't going to find more of Jesus if I cut them off.

Who said refraining from their gay wedding is cutting them off? I would have never gone in a million years but treated them nicely and continued to keep connections. But I would go to nothing that celebrated their marriage nor say anything about me wishing their marriage would work.

Brother, God doesn't even want them married, and you wish them all the best in their marriage?

If it matters, I didn't attend the reception.

But you attended the actual marriage itself, which is the MAIN and most serious part of it all. It would have been less to go to the reception and not the marriage, but I would attend neither and I do not believe God would want any of us to. A wedding asks God to bless their marriage, when the Word says it's an abomination to Him. If she had a birthday, FINE! If she had a graduation party, GREAT! But nothing to do with gay marriage is okay, and it is not cutting them off by refraining from attendance. I just said celebrate their birthdays. Wish them the best in THEIR PERSONAL health, etc. But we can't wish their gay marriage "ALL THE BEST" if it is sin, brother. That is so easy to understand that I am surprised you cannot see it.

I felt it would probably be a little rowdy and that her gay friends would probably be a bit brazen and carefree in their celebration. So, I respectfully declined to go. She was a bit bummed, but understood. I thought I struck a loving balance with a family member who is dear to me.

I totally disagree. But again, my view is not cutting them off. It is just not having anything to do with the homosexuality, and ANYTHING ELSE for them as persons is fine. But anything that shows a hint that you agree with their "union" is wrong.

I do wish her the best. I certainly don't wish her the worst.

It's not wishing her as a person the worst when you do not wish their marriage all the best. You are confusing the person with the gay relationship.

But saying you go to the wedding and wish them the best means you are hoping their marriage continues and is blessed. God cannot bless that.

She's family. I was being loving, kind, and courteous.

Who said you cannot love them and be kind just because you refuse to attend their gay wedding that asks God to bless an abomination?

We can love, but loving them is not condoning their sin. You condoned their sin. Your attendance made them think you feel their sin is something to celebrate. That is partaking of their sin by agreement with it. If you did not intend to celebrate their sin, but just wanted to be a loving family member you simply did it the wrong way. You can be a loving family member without condoning their sin and hoping their gay marriage does well.

That is not to say you wish them the worst as persons. But I believe you should want their marriage to dissolve and for them to get deliverance from that vile sin and each of them meet a man whom God planned for them to marry instead.

When I pray that they receive all the best, I'm handing them to God to deal with as He desires.

If you are not intending to condone their marriage and not intending to celebrate that sin with them, then you did it very much incorrectly. I hope your intention was to not condone their sin, and it seems that is the case. But when I show love to a satanist I am not going to go to their satanic rituals and wish them all the best.

I believe your heart is in the right place, brother. Don't get me wrong. But you're very very mistaken about this. Not only that, you let everyone who attended think, whether you agree or not, that you celebrate gay marriage. That's what people will think, brother. Flee the very appearance of evil.

Let's try not to forget, homosexuality isn't the unforgiveable sin.

I never said it was. But that has nothing to do with celebrating their sin with them. Jesus forgave the adulterous woman, but he told her to sin no more.

P.S.
Although she's Episcopal, her church has a "Contemporary Service" which is charismatic. She has received the Holy Ghost. Is she perfect? No. But who is?

Brother, that is a wrong comparison. To battle with sin is one thing. To struggle against sin when you know it's wrong and have a hard time overcoming due to spiritual weakness and immaturity is one thing. But it is totally different to not believe homosexuality is sin and to celebrate it. That is far cry from saying none of us are perfect, because by saying we aren't perfect means we struggle with what we know is wrong and aren't always victorious.

The man in 1 Cor 5 who committed fornication with his father's wife, andn that wife together with him, would not be a couple you should go on a double date with. Paul said put that dude out of the church. There is no difference than attending a gay wedding in a church and having fellowship with the man and his father's wife. You fellowshipped gay people in they core of their gay beliefs by going to their wedding. I believe that's what the bible talks about in 1 Cor 6 with sexual sin followed by mentioning drinking the cup of devils.

1 Corinthians 10:21 KJV (21) Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils.

Above all, she's a human being. A person. A person with a lot to offer this world beyond her sexuality. I pray that God forgive her sin, just as I do everyone else's. But I'm not going to cut her off. No way. She's worth more than that. Here's a picture of her and her companion.

Not attending their wedding is not cutting them off. Sorry. I will never agree with that reasoning. I seriously think you should talk to the Lord about this.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

A- needless to say I disagree with your intolerance statement. The left is the ones wanting to put limitations on free speech and wanting to "ban whites" from safe spaces.

Can you provide evidence of this? I'm white. I've never had any issues. I've never had an immigrant take my job. Nor have I ever suffered on account of being white. So, you can imagine that I'm rather skeptical about the whining.

I do agree with your assessment of Islam, but would say that Bill Maher has taken much heat from almost every other leftist for his stance.

I know. The left sees a minority religion and a minority race being singled out for mistreatment. However, the truth is... Islam in and of itself is a rather oppressive religion that is inherently bent on advancing its codified system of laws.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by CalledOut238

Conspiracy theory terminology was created by the CIA and Warren commission to discount anyone who opposed the government narrative. It is used today to dismiss and detract. It implies ones counterpart is irrelevant or in the "Twilight Zone". Christians supporting Luciferian Zionism are the blind piping to the blind. Read their Talmud and Kabbalah and you will find that the Zionist consider you a goy animal.

More Anti-Semitic, tinfoil hat malarkey.

UFO's and aliens are demonic apparitions.

We do agree here. You mentioned that you read more books than websites. Here's an excellent book on the topic of UFOs:

Alien Obsession: What Lies Behind Abductions, Sightings and the Attraction to the Paranormal Paperback – March, 1998
by Ron Rhodes
https://www.amazon.com/Alien-Obsessi...lien+Obsession

I have used the authority of our Messiah to cast out devils and they are very real. Stay in your cognitive dissonance world it is your right as an American.

Demons tremble at the authority of the name when called upon in faith....regardless of individual ideology.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Jason B

Interesting.

Protest churches.

Protect abortion clinics.

That's where I break ranks with the Left. I'm not big on abortion. I believe that it is within the Christian's right to protest outside of abortion clinics.

When we look at the abortion rate in the United States we can see that the abortion rate appears to remain steady with only slight declines and increases. The abortion rate increases slightly during economic hard times. The abortion rate slightly decreases in times of economic stability. But it seems to fluctuate between 17 to 20 out of every 1,000 pregnancies.

What is interesting to me is how socioeconomics effects the abortion rate. For example, Mexico has far tougher standards on abortion than the U.S.. So, one would expect less abortion. However, Mexico's abortion rate is nearly 40 out of every 1,000 pregnancies, nearly twice the abortion rate in the United States.

However, if we look at Belgium and Switzerland, the abortion rate is well below 10 per every 1,000 pregnancies. What was interesting to me is that these are socially liberal states that are pro-choice. Frankly, they've accomplished keeping the abortion rate lower than it has ever been in the United States, including when abortion was illegal. The socioeconomic stability of these nations contributes to adequate income to raise a family. Not to mention that they have comprehensive sex education and accessible birth control. These nations also have a living wage, equal pay for women, and universal health care; which means that having a baby isn't a financial hardship in any way. Also, they have subsidized daycare centers for parents who qualify and daycare on state university campuses. These states are a shining testimony to the liberal goal of reducing abortion, without prohibition. As President Bill Clinton said, "safe, legal, and rare".

America is at a cross roads of sorts as it relates to abortion. We can either focus on abortion's legality without realizing that abortion's legality really doesn't affect the abortion rate, or we can focus on the socioeconomic factors that contribute to women choosing abortion.

In essence.... we could have a nation that has strong laws against abortion yet have a high abortion rate due to low wages, lesser pay for women, lack of health insurance, substandard sex education, and lack of access to birth control.... or we can have a nation that allows for choice, but has a low abortion rate due to living wages, equal pay, universal healthcare coverage, comprehensive sex education, and access to birth control.

The DFLA (Democrats for Life of America) had an agenda they referred to as the 95/10 initiative (a goal to reduce the abortion rate by 95% within 10 years. Most Republicans and militant prochoice Democrats opposed this initiative. President Obama did indeed pick up a few of their agenda items, but not all, for the ACA. Here's that the pro-life wing of the Democratic Party tried to do to help address the abortion issue:

-establish a toll-free number to direct women to places that will provide support;
- collect accurate data on why women choose abortion;
- provide Pregnancy Counseling and Childcare on University Campuses;
-provide accurate information to patients receiving a positive result from prenatal testing;
-provide counseling in maternity group homes;
-increase the adoption tax credit and it permanent
-eliminate pregnancy as a pre-existing condition with respect to health care;
- provide grants for ultrasound equipment;
- support informed consent for Abortion Services;
- increase awareness about violence against pregnant women;
-require the SCHIP to cover pregnant women and unborn children;
- provide free home visits by registered nurses for new mothers

Several things are important to note.

- First, don't assume that all Democrats are Pro-Choice.
- Second, if a Democrat is pro-choice, don't assume that they are pro-abortion.
- Thirdly, if a Democrat is pro-choice, don't assume that they don't support measures that would reduce the abortion rate.

Many Democrats are devout Catholics or Jews. There is increasing pressure to shift from lauding "choice" to focusing on social measures to reduce the number of abortions. But the war between Pro-Life Republicans and Pro-Choice Democrats keep the issue from rising beyond choice vs. prohibition.

Maybe one day we'll see an America wherein the socioeconomic factors of abortion are addressed, making abortion a rare occurrence completely.

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Understand.
Can you then explain somewhat more about your beliefs?
I am more interested in your theological beliefs and how they tie into your political worldview.

CO - either you missed this or I missed your response. Can you address the above?

[aegsm76]

A - seriously?
You are unaware of the lefts attempt to limit speech which they find objectionable?
And you are unaware of the effort to create "safe spaces" and ban people they find objectionable?
Just google these issues and you will find many, many examples.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

No it isn't the unforgivable sin, but enabling it is.

Now you're just trying to pick a fight! LOL

I've learned that sexuality, sexual interests, sexual behaviors and preferences are what they are. They rarely change. Suppressing sexual feelings can have a serious negative effect on the individual, so I'd never want someone to not be free to simply be who they are. I'm no judge or hater. We all have our proclivities. I'd rather be judged for being too merciful and too loving than be judged for not being merciful and loving enough.

I believe that God dealt with the sin issue on Calvary. I do not believe that any sinner is beyond God's grace and forgiveness.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

It is not subjecting sinners to morality. That's a distortion of what I said. It is overcoming evil and having revival rather than standing there and not doing anything to curb evil and letting the world go to hellfire and brimstone because we think prophecy teaches us Jesus wants that to occur before He comes again..

I think I better understand you now.

Imagine what would happen if Satan could trick us into neglecting family bible study & prayer at home, individual prayer times, fasting, and sharing Jesus with everyone we meet... and to focusing on a political agenda that leaves us feeling as though we've taken a stand for righteousness when in fact, we're actually growing spiritually colder each year, and relying on a political agenda that causes most unbelievers to see us more like the American Taliban than a people of love and grace.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Notice how antinomians think it strange that sinners should be made subject to righteousness.

Two wholly incompatible mindsets, locked in battle. Only one will be victorious.

I've noticed that too.

I'm not an antinomian. I believe that we are ultimately bound by two commandments:

1.) Love God with all your being.
2.) Demonstrate your love for God by loving others as yourself.

These two commandments are the eternal and universal principles of all righteousness. The Ten Commandments are a nice ethical standard that establishes the bare minimum. But loves demands infinitely more than the Ten Commandments.

I do believe that every unsaved soul will be judged by the Ten Commandments. But every Christian is dead to the Law and is to live by love.

[Aquila]

Bro. Blume, I did read your post and I believe that I felt the correct tone of the post. It was well thought out and thoroughly expressed your concerns. I do thank you for your concern and you've given me some things to reflect on.

However, above you wrote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

It's not wishing her as a person the worst when you do not wish their marriage all the best. You are confusing the person with the gay relationship.

But saying you go to the wedding and wish them the best means you are hoping their marriage continues and is blessed. God cannot bless that.

I believe it is you who is confusing the person with the gay relationship. I wish Sarah and her partner all the best. I do not wish the poverty, sickness, or harm. Nor do I wish them sadness, hardship, or loss. They are persons who Jesus died for. They are persons that I am commanded to love in spite of their sin.

As it relates to their "marriage", she's made her decision. No protest or rebuke or admonition on my part is going to change anything. Besides, I've offered her admonitions about this topic before. I have prayed about it and I felt that keeping the lines of communication, trust, love, acceptance, and friendship open will be absolutely necessary to reach her when it all comes crashing down around her (and it will). She knows that even though well over half the family has nearly disowned her, I'm right here. I'll always stand by her and take her in. I'll always love her regardless of her goofy opinions and mistakes.

Let me tell you about Sarah, she's a truly precious soul. She'd never harm anyone. She's soft spoken and kind. But she's had a tough road. Her mother and father divorced when she was younger. Her father was granted custody and he was physically abusive to both her and her sister. He remarried and things didn't go very well with her and her step mother. In her senior year of high school she was at a party with her boyfriend and they all got pretty loaded. On the way home, they were in a horrendous automobile accident that killed the driver of the other vehicle. Her boyfriend was driving, but he didn't have a license. He convinced her to say that she was driving. She ended up being charged as an adult with vehicular manslaughter and was sentenced to 6 years in prison. The family was filled with anger at her over the entire incident and rarely visited. After his second marriage ended in divorce (while she was in prison) even her father stopped visiting. Guess who did visit her? Me. When she finally got out of prison her father was struggling with deep alcoholism and she couldn't stay with him more than a week, guess who took her in? Me. After a few months of being out of prison and she came out of the closet, the entire family felt she had gone too far, they ranted, cursed her, and threatened the woman she was seeing. They essentially disowned her. Her father was the worst. He verbally disowned her and said, "My daughter is dead to me!"

Guess who drove her home and talked to her for a couple hours after she came out and the family went nuts? Me. Who was there when she was baptized in the Episcopal church, because it was the only church that welcomed her as she was? Me. Guess who made good friends with her priest, who was amazed that I was a peaceable Apostolic? Me. And out of the entire family, guess who she personally wanted at her wedding (knowing I don't agree) because he's the one person who has always stood by her? Me.

Take into consideration, I'm the only real Christian on this side of the family. These people don't attend church. They drink, smoke, and act like total fools, but they acted all self-righteous and like her mistakes made her absolute trash. I'm the Christian, and they've even asked me why, since I'm a Christian, that I'm so tolerant of her. I simply say, "The same thing that makes me tolerant of you, I love her and I see the good in her."

I'm confident that this marriage will fail. I know that she'll be left broken and confused after it all comes crashing down around her. And who plans to be there when it happens? Me. Who plans to point her to Jesus after she's tried everything else? Me.

Yes, I've had to do some uncomfortable things to keep the connection strong. And if she goes drifting off into the night, it will not be because I cut the cord or damaged the relationship.

I sincerely feel in my heart that at some point she's going to ask me, "Chris, why did you come to my wedding? I know you don't believe in same sex marriage." I already know what I'm going to say. I'm going to answer, "I attended your wedding for the same reason why I've always been there for you. Because I love you."

So, you can judge me, condemn me, throw stones at me, and say I'm compromised, and that I should pray to God, and that I'm not a real Christian, or whatever else you can manage to conceive.

But I'll always be there for her.