Revising Pentecostal history: 1908-1912

[navygoat1998]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Jason,

Here is one of your teachers you seem to hold in high esteem. Please listen to him.

Not only does he have no understanding as to Oneness doctrine himself and then he uses Catholic councils to prop up the Trinity. He makes the statement Oneness do not have God and have no hope of salvation.

Would you be comfortable under his ministry? Would we be to sectarian if we perceived HIM as a false teacher going to Hell?

Mike I can't load the video, who is the speaker?

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Jason,

As I am reading these posts I am listening to Paltalk.com. In the Christian section there are usually 60-70 rooms going on most of then ran by Evangelicals. Even as I am writing I am hearing them condemn to Hell whoever is not Evangelical.

If any religous group could be called out for "sectarianism" it would be them. Just as you perceive Oneness people judging Trins into Hell over the deity of Christ I hear it constantly not just over Oneness but over anything that does not confess the Trinity.

Do you feel sorry for the Jehovah Witnesses? They seem far more diligent to me than Evangelicals. They actually witness and are committed to laboring for Christ.

And yet the Trins cast them into Hell daily. Why? Because they dont accept the Trinity. Evangelicals meanwhile who are fine with celebrating pagan holidays like Christmas and Easter think JW's teach salvation by works.

Do you think Jehovah Witness will go to Hell? Do they not confess that Jesus is the Son of God? So what is the basis in your opinion that they should be thrown into Hell while the Evangelical will enter Heaven?

1) What is pal talk
2) There certainly is sectarianism amongst trinitarians. I don't deny that and I don't condone it.
3) yes I do feel sorry for JWs as well as anyone who is in a false religious system. I do not rejoice in their deception or damnation
4)yes I do think JWs are lost, but I hope I am wrong. My "hope" that they may be saved would be in the fact that they do confess Christ as the Messiah and Son of God, believe he died for their sins and believe He rose again. But the reason I doubt their salvation and so "feel sorry" for them is that they deny the deity of Christ, basically deny His resurrection (deny he rose bodily) and also the belief that He is the arch angel Michael. I'm not sure how, based on the teachings of Romans 10:8-9 and all the Christological teaching of Colossians and 1-3 John they could be saved.

In that same thought I would think the "evangelical" will enter heaven while the JW doesn't because the evangelical affirms the absolute deity of Christ (believes He is the Great I AM) believes in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ). I thinks thats a significant difference (believing Jesus is the one true God vs believing He is a created being/angel and that he actually rose from the grave vs just a spiritual resurrection).

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Acts 22:16

And now, why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptised, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

When was Paul saved? Before he was told to do this? Or was he still unsaved when those words were spoken to him?

bump

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Jason,

Here is one of your teachers you seem to hold in high esteem. Please listen to him.

Not only does he have no understanding as to Oneness doctrine himself and then he uses Catholic councils to prop up the Trinity. He makes the statement Oneness do not have God and have no hope of salvation.

Would you be comfortable under his ministry? Would we be to sectarian if we perceived HIM as a false teacher going to Hell?

Yes I do hold him in high esteem, but I do agree he does not fully grasp oneness. He (and other trinitarians) think oneness equals Sabellianism- that God was Father and became Son then became the Holy Ghost (hence the misunderstanding that the baptism causes a problem for oneness people).

A lot of trinitarians can't really understand oneness because they so identify a rejection of the Trinity with a rejection of the deity of Christ.

Believe me. I have briefly spoken to MacArthur face to face and last Saturday spoke to James White (of Alpha/Omega Ministries, his debates are all over YouTube). James White seemed to struggle with grasping that I don't deny that the Son is eternal or divine and existing right now. He seemed to think oneness people don't believe in the deity of the Son and don't believe he is the I Am (he quoted John 8:24, 8:58 and Colossians 2:9) seemingly not realizing that oneness people strongly affirm all those scriptures.

Would I be comfortable under MacArthurs ministry? I don't know. Certainly we'd need to discuss the issue more. But I'm not really put off by trinitarians though I dislike their terminology. I haven't come across one (within the people I fellowship with) that believes in three gods.

I don't think he's going to hell, not at all. I do believe he is wrong on this issue. I don't think misunderstanding someone's theology will cause someone not to be saved.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Esaias

bump

I don't know. All I could do is speculate as to the moment of Paul's salvation. Whether when the Lord spoke to Him on Damascus Road and he realized who Jesus was, whether it contemplating these things for 3 days, whether it was shortly before his baptism or even at. I don't see the need to be dogmatic here. I will say I doubt Paul would write everything he did about justification by faith if he believed he wasn't saved until he was baptized.
When I came to faith I was baptized essentially immediately myself.

[Esaias]

You don't know?

Well, let us look at it. He was either saved before... Or after...right? Those are the only options (unless he got saved while being spoken to? Doesn't look like it from the context...)

If it was BEFORE, then why was he still needing to wash away his sins? Can a person be saved... and yet still polluted by the stain of sins?

If it was AFTER, why was he told to be baptised? Isn't baptism for people who are already saved? I mean why tell an unsaved person to get baptised? Isn't that getting the cart begore the horse?

And either way, why is baptism linked to washing away sins the way it is? Shouldn't it be more natural to say "arise and wash away your sins, calling on the Lord, and then be baptised"?

Why does the Bible put it so differently? Does YOUR religion lead you to say things the way the apostles did? The way the early church did? Would YOU ever tell someone to get up and be baptised and wash away their sins, calling on the name of the Lord?

Would such a statement be a natural, logical result of your views on conversion, baptism, forgiveness, salvation?

[Michael The Disciple]

Believe me. I have briefly spoken to MacArthur face to face and last Saturday spoke to James White (of Alpha/Omega Ministries, his debates are all over YouTube). James White seemed to struggle with grasping that I don't deny that the Son is eternal or divine and existing right now. He seemed to think oneness people don't believe in the deity of the Son and don't believe he is the I Am (he quoted John 8:24, 8:58 and Colossians 2:9) seemingly not realizing that oneness people strongly affirm all those scriptures.

White has heard Oneness teaching for sure as he debates and condemns it. IMO both of these men are equally as dogmatic in their views about who is going to Hell as any Oneness I have met.

[Esaias]

I doubt either White or Macarthur care to know what Oneness really is. They have books to sell. Their ignorance is inexcusable. If they are ignorant it proves they are utterly unqualified to teach on ANYTHING. If they know, but prefer to argue against straw men, it shows their dishonesty.

Either way, they are not qualified to be teachers of anything, and are no examples of anything.

[Michael The Disciple]

1) What is pal talk

Paltalk.com is a voice active forum. You actually talk to each other not just type. Download and go to the Christian section there are plenty of "rooms".

You can start a room yourself and talk about anything you want. People browse just like we do here on the Forum difference being you can click on a room and the people are actually there talking in real time. Some rooms can have as many as 80-90 people. Others may be 2 or 3. It all depends on what one is looking for.

It is by far Evangelical with a few JW rooms a bit of everything. You can run your room anyway you please. Some Evangelical rooms dont allow any discussion contrary to their doctrine others do. I have addressed large numbers of them many times. There are only maybe 20 Oneness Pentecostals that I know of there they rarely make their own rooms.

I think you would enjoy it. You need speakers and a mic to participate. It has been "Church" to me more than anything else for many years.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Esaias

You don't know?

Well, let us look at it. He was either saved before... Or after...right? Those are the only options (unless he got saved while being spoken to? Doesn't look like it from the context...)

If it was BEFORE, then why was he still needing to wash away his sins? Can a person be saved... and yet still polluted by the stain of sins?

If it was AFTER, why was he told to be baptised? Isn't baptism for people who are already saved? I mean why tell an unsaved person to get baptised? Isn't that getting the cart begore the horse?

And either way, why is baptism linked to washing away sins the way it is? Shouldn't it be more natural to say "arise and wash away your sins, calling on the Lord, and then be baptised"?

Why does the Bible put it so differently? Does YOUR religion lead you to say things the way the apostles did? The way the early church did? Would YOU ever tell someone to get up and be baptised and wash away their sins, calling on the name of the Lord?

Would such a statement be a natural, logical result of your views on conversion, baptism, forgiveness, salvation?