Happy Birthday, President Reagan

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam

Come to think of it growth by borrowing started with Reagan too.

hmm, well that's when it became overt, yes. Maybe they felt they needed an actor to put that one over on us?

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by n david

Nina Shea is director of Hudson Institute’s Center for Religious Freedom and co-author of Persecuted: The Global Assault on Christians. She has a passport with likely more countries stamped on it than you do.

and, as usual, the functional truth is somewhere in the middle of you guys, wadr. One should understand that media is virtually always propagated to highlight or forward an opinion or agenda. Doesn't mean that your factoids are not all true, perhaps--just that they don't rep the truth. Wadr.

[n david]

Every article and report I've read has stated there are no church buildings or public services in SA. In order for the millions of Christian expats and foreign workers to express their faith and worship, they must do so in secret - either at an embassy or in a compound.

I get it. You like SA. What muslim wouldn't? Just be honest. Stop pretending to be Baghdad Bob and admit there are no church buildings and that there is religious oppression in SA. It's okay to admit it. We already know about it. People who have been there have reported it. Even the current muslim-loving administration here admits SA is the 2nd worst in the world when it comes to religious oppression.

The reason you want to change the subject and tell me to just get a passport and come myself is because you know there really aren't any church buildings in SA. Why you can't just admit it, I don't know.

[n david]

Originally Posted by shazeep

and, as usual, the functional truth is somewhere in the middle of you guys, wadr. One should understand that media is virtually always propagated to highlight or forward an opinion or agenda. Doesn't mean that your factoids are not all true, perhaps--just that they don't rep the truth. Wadr.

W A D R, if anyone wants to help muslims look good, it's this administration and most in the media. If I were only able to find reports like this from sites like Alex Jones or whatever his name is, I'd be less inclined to believe it.

However, when the State Dept and other obama administration reports state there are no churches in SA, and that SA is the 2nd most religious intolerant countries in the world, it bears taking note. The reason being obama and this State Dept have tried their best to put a positive spin on muslims around the world.

It's not like there's some big conspiracy against Saudi Arabia. I mean seriously, how many of the 9/11 hijackers were from SA? And remind me again, what did the US do to punish SA for it? Oh right, nothing.

[Walks_in_islam]

C

Originally Posted by n david

Every article and report I've read has stated there are no church buildings or public services in SA. In order for the millions of Christian expats and foreign workers to express their faith and worship, they must do so in secret - either at an embassy or in a compound.

I get it. You like SA. What muslim wouldn't? Just be honest. Stop pretending to be Baghdad Bob and admit there are no church buildings and that there is religious oppression in SA. It's okay to admit it. We already know about it. People who have been there have reported it. Even the current muslim-loving administration here admits SA is the 2nd worst in the world when it comes to religious oppression.

The reason you want to change the subject and tell me to just get a passport and come myself is because you know there really aren't any church buildings in SA. Why you can't just admit it, I don't know.

............either at an embassy or in a compound

Expats live in compounds. There are dozens of expat compounds in Saudi Arabia with thousands and thousands and thousands of expats.

You (were) given a snapshot that was taken outside of the community center of one. That community center includes a theatre, bowling alley, three restaurants, a huge meeting area, a library, an indoor pool, and some other misc things.

This particular one is located on the beach. So I snapped a picture of that too LOL.

These things, and very tight security for these things, are provided by the Saudi companies who employ these expats.

In that snapshot, you (were) given a picture of two expats who had just left church.

It is not a secret place nor were they sneaking around.

There is much information to be found on these expat compounds and there are many sites where, depending on who works for who, you can talk to the expats who live in these compounds. Before we left for Saudi Arabia in 2009 for example we had much discussion with other expats on an expat site.

One of the things that CAN be found, searching these sites is this:

Expats can and do hold religious services in these compounds and these meeting areas, with chairs, podiums, speakers, and all sundry and necessary are provided to hold them.

This particular company has gone further, as I told one of your colleagues in 2009, and arranged to employ a non-denominational minister who works for "recreation". He is American. His only ?job? appears to be their minister.

The only question I had was whether they were holding services in the school gym across the street (it is open and it is empty and they can) or in the community center. So I drove over there, flashed a couple of badges (lol), went back there, and checked.

You have, however, answered your own question. By acknowledging that this happens you have acknowledged that there are hundreds of such places where, if the people choose to, it can happen.

No more pics. I was in the process of getting you actual pics of actual christians holding actual services and you sort of turned into a little jerk about it.

Me? When I wanted to know about Saudi Arabia I wanted every picture I could get. But you don't really care about Saudi Arabia or what happens in Saudi Arabia, you just want to validate the opinion that someone else fed to you.

If: I were sitting at home in some dusty dump small town reading articles, never owning a passport, I would not actually be able to visualize this either. Article says one thing, people are doing another? So I guess what really happens seems to be different than what news stories says happens. EITHER: Our news gets a spin or our news is, like your bold declarations, based on reading articles too.

I told you that there are church services held and that there are buildings (nice ones as it turns out) provided to hold them. I also told you that this was happening when we arrived here in 2009, was happening when we left in 2012, and is still happening. I also told you that these people have never been bothered doing it. I stand by these statements. The rest of whatever you imagined I might have "meant" is in your head. I did not tell you I "liked" Saudi Arabia. I told you that your christian colleagues like it. Any one of them can have their things packed and shipped home and receive free business class tickets for themselves and their family at any time to go home and they choose to live here and not there. I stand by that too.

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by shazeep

and, as usual, the functional truth is somewhere in the middle of you guys, wadr. One should understand that media is virtually always propagated to highlight or forward an opinion or agenda. Doesn't mean that your factoids are not all true, perhaps--just that they don't rep the truth. Wadr.

For me, I believe I will stick to what I see on this issue. No way I would guess what happens in neighboring countries though it appears that practice of other religions seems to have been happening for some time.

I am no defender of Saudi Arabia and how they do things here. I like it here because the schools are excellent, communities are safe, we do not worry about crime, medical care is free, and we dont get beat to death with taxes and fees. The money is the same but we get to use it rather than squander it on taxes, fees, insurance, medical bills, overpriced gas, and other wasteful things. LOL

[shazeep]

to be honest, i'm not sure that i even disagree with the idea of limiting a religion--any religion--that is not practiced by the majority in a country; it smacks of "mixing cultures" to me. Also--noting the state of Western Christianity at the moment--I'm not entirely convinced that it shouldn't be outlawed here. we are best described as a bunch of proselytizing, codependent navel-gazers, imo

now, i have some personal issues with SA; forbidding access to Mt Sinai; their incestuous relationship with the US; their lack of stewardship--of their vast wealth, and Islam--etc., but their lack of churches of the Western stripe does not affect anyone that will read this in any way, i don't think; so...i am somewhat surprised that they even allow discreet churches, to be honest with you. Asking for trouble.

Muslims, Jews...actually most of the rest of the world, in general, does not appreciate being proselytized at. Christ never proselytized. And, speaking of discreet, when is the last time a Muslim came knocking on a US door with a message, and a tract?
How many of you Americans could even give the street of the Mosque nearest to you?

/satire

[shazeep]

"I'm a hardcore Christian; gee, i think I'll go work in Saudi Arabia." ya, ok pal
we have Scriptures for fools, too

[shazeep]

"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion means."
Mahatma Gandhi

[Walks_in_islam]

Originally Posted by n david

Nina Shea is director of Hudson Institute’s Center for Religious Freedom and co-author of Persecuted: The Global Assault on Christians. She has a passport with likely more countries stamped on it than you do.

Dude that was a really really dumb place to go for an example.

I added pages to my passport in 2010. I am down to 1 and 1/2 blank pages. There are no more stamps than that possible so your theory might be slightly off.

She has attended a lot of cool conferences! Attending conferences sure trumps living somewhere. LOL

Here is why your choice was dumb

According to the right-wing nutjobs at the Hudson Institute:

Shea works extensively for the advancement of individual religious freedom and other human rights in U.S. foreign policy

However in PRACTICE:

It appears that she is such a great example of a champion of religious tolerance that she is personally and single-handedly responsible for imposition of term limits at U.S. Commission for International Religious Freedom (USCIFR). A wonderful achievement! She got special "Nina Shea" laws passed specifically to prohibit religious discrimination on the U.S. Commission for International Religious Freedom!

Yeah, when I want some data on religious tolerance I want to reference someone who had to have special legislation to prohibit intolerance that was practiced under their leadership.

http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/Shea_Nina


Nina Shea is a senior fellow at the neoconservative Hudson Institute. A former member of the government-appointed U.S. Commission for International Religious Freedom (USCIFR), Shea directs Hudson's Center for Religious Freedom, which was previously known as the Puebla Institute and housed at Freedom House. Although she focuses broadly on human rights, Shea's work has primarily centered on the persecution of Christians, whom she once claimed were the most persecuted religious group in the world. Observers have accused Shea of having Islamophobic beliefs and criticized her work for often being simplistic and inaccurate.[1] During her tenure at the Commission for International Religious Freedom, which was once led by the Elliott Abrams and has roots in the U.S. evangelical movement,[2] Shea was the target of criticism for her efforts, according to one observer, to wage a "campaign to transform the USCIRF into an outpost of the Hudson Institute, in order to promote her personal Islamophobia as well as the Institute's extremist message of worldwide religious war against Islam."[3] Shea's alleged opposition to hiring Muslim employees—which came to a head when a Muslim employee ousted by Shea filed a civil rights complaint—led to legislative reforms to prohibit discrimination at the commission and impose term limits on its commissioners, which brought Shea's decade-plus tenure there to an end.[4]

Summary: There is zip difference between the Islamophobia that Nina Shea propagates and the anti-christian rhetoric that an extremist hard-liner espouses. Next.