The entire notion that preterism somehow leads one to becoming an atheist is ridiculous.
Preterism to me, has in fact strengthened my belief in His word as I can now better see how He set things up and how they came to pass.
One quick example is the prophecies Jesus gave his disciples in Matt 24 where He told them the temple would be destroyed in that generation. Of course they knew what He meant and asked Him what would be the sign of His coming to destroy that temple.
We can now look at that prophecy in @30 AD and some 40 years later, we today can attest to the fact that it was in fact destroyed within that generation back then, as He said it would. In fact it goes even further. The Christians that was in Jerusalem during the siege, in AD 70, knew of Jesus' warnings of His coming to destroy that temple and the sign for them to leave town was when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by the Roman army, so they heeded Jesus' words and they fled, like He told them to do and they were saved! We can point to that and have a clear showing where He said it, where they obey Him and they were saved from the carnage, EXACTLY like He said it would occur and history supports it as well.
Everything He told them came to pass as He told them.
It can be proven when it occurred vs. trying to guess and guess and guess again when it might occur.
That is a very powerful witness!!
Preterism does not lead to atheism anymore than Oneness leads to trinitarianism as I know many that have left Oneness and became trinitarians.
Hey, Brother Badejo nailed it, saying a Preterist leads to Atheism is like saying Pentecostalism leads to serpent handling.
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
The entire notion that preterism somehow leads one to becoming an atheist is ridiculous.
Preterism to me, has in fact strengthened my belief in His word as I can now better see how He set things up and how they came to pass.
One quick example is the prophecies Jesus gave his disciples in Matt 24 where He told them the temple would be destroyed in that generation. Of course they knew what He meant and asked Him what would be the sign of His coming to destroy that temple.
We can now look at that prophecy in @30 AD and some 40 years later, we today can attest to the fact that it was in fact destroyed within that generation back then, as He said it would. In fact it goes even further. The Christians that was in Jerusalem during the siege, in AD 70, knew of Jesus' warnings of His coming to destroy that temple and the sign for them to leave town was when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by the Roman army, so they heeded Jesus' words and they fled, like He told them to do and they were saved! We can point to that and have a clear showing where He said it, where they obey Him and they were saved from the carnage, EXACTLY like He said it would occur and history supports it as well.
Everything He told them came to pass as He told them.
It can be proven when it occurred vs. trying to guess and guess and guess again when it might occur.
That is a very powerful witness!!
Preterism does not lead to atheism anymore than Oneness leads to trinitarianism as I know many that have left Oneness and became trinitarians.
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
He will be Islam's deliverer.
He is to be a descendent of Muhammad.
He is to bear the name or some variant name of Muhammad.
He will look like a Bani Israel.
He will lead the Muslims and wage jihad against them rest of the world.
He will re-establish the Caliphate and rule over the world.
He will cause Islam to be the only religion in the world and rule with Islamic Law.
He will cause the world to embrace the Islamic calendar.
He will be much loved by the world.
He will conquer the Jews and slaughter them.
He will set up his seat of authority in Jerusalem.
He will rule for seven years (or 8, or 9).
He will make a treaty of seven years with a person of priestly lineage.
He will possess and distribute wealth to the Muslims.
He will discover a new Torah, Gospel, and the Ark, and will use them to argue and persuade Jews and Christian, and cause many people to follow him into Islam.
He will have Isa (Islamic version of Jesus) to assist him.
His assistant, Isa, will kill the ad-Dajjal (Islamic version of the antichrist) who exercises miracles that will torment the world.
He will mark all men to distinguish Muslims from the infidels, the Muslim's face will then shine while that of a non-Muslim will become black.
During his rule, there will be good rain, great harvest and crops.
He will not work miracles; rather the working of miracles is attributed to Isa (the Islamic Jesus) who testifies to the world that Al-Mahdi is Savior.
The Bible teaches the following regarding the Futurist version of the Antichrist:
His power base will arise in the remnants of Seleucid Empire (which includes Assyria and Khorasan). *
Some say he will be a Jew, others say he will be a gentile
Starts humble, given authority to rule.
People voluntarily give power to him.
He is given power, throne and authority by the dragon.
He changes his religion.
Most Muslim states of the Middle East, except possibly Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia. The Bible states 10 nations, and three of them will be subdued.
He will bring the entire world under subjection.
By his words, will win over many people, including Jews and Christians. "By peace he will destroy many".
Greatly loved by the world (after he conquers the world).
Comes on a white horse, conquering (one interpretation).
A large army of at least 200 million will assemble in Iraq region.
Will wage war and no one can stand against him.
Will rule for seven years (most common interpretation).
Peace treaty of seven years with the people of God. This treaty will be broken in the middle of seven years.
Will kill many Jews and Christians.
Beheading is one of the methods of execution. It is a distinguishing mark of Antichrist.
Will change the law.
Will likely change the calendar. ("change the set times")
Will cause deceit to prosper.
Direct people to worship the dragon. Establish one religion in the world.
Great prosperity and wealth. Distributes booty and land.
Antichrist has Second Beast (False Prophet that is like a lamb but speaks as a dragon) to assist him.
The Beast will kill the Two Witnesses who exercise miracles that will torment those who try to kill them.
The Bible does not explicitly ascribe miracles to Antichrist. His assistant will perform miracles for him.
Another interesting point is that the Bible lists the nations that will form an alliance with the Antichrist. These nations are:
Egypt, which he will attack and subdue (Daniel 11:42).
Meschek and Tubal (most likely parts of Turkey, parts of Southern Russia, parts of Iran),
Magog (a region convering parts of Turkey, Syria, and/or former Soviet Republics of Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Azerbaijan, Afghanistan, Chechnya, Dagestan),
Persia (modern Iran and Iraq. Ancient Persia also includes Iraq. The Euphrates River in Iraq is also mentioned together with the two Beasts in Rev 16:12-13),
Cush (African Cush covers parts of Egypt, Sudan, Ethiopia. Asian Cush covers Arabia through Euphrates),
Put (Libya),
Gomer (Cappadocia, Turkey),
Togarmah (southeastern part of Turkey near Syria)
The reader should note all these nations are predominantly Islamic peoples. Islam teaches that the army that comes to support the al Mahdi (with black flags) will come from Khorasan.
Where is Khorasan??? Afghanistan.
The ISIS militants destabilizing the Middle East are all Jihadists trying to prepare for al Mahdi. From Afghanistan to Iraq... what do they wave? Black flags.
Bumping this thread to review several of Aquila's posts on this subject. considering whats taking place in the ME right now.
good stuff.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
Bumping this thread to review several of Aquila's posts on this subject. considering whats taking place in the ME right now.
good stuff.
So, Islamic eschatology confirms futurism?
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
EB---tell me who was the "man of sin, the son of perdition" that was revealed before Jesus came?
__________________
When a newspaper posed the question, "What's Wrong with the World?" G. K. Chesterton reputedly wrote a brief letter in response: "Dear Sirs: I am. Sincerely Yours, G. K. Chesterton." That is the attitude of someone who has grasped the message of Jesus.
EB---tell me who was the "man of sin, the son of perdition" that was revealed before Jesus came?
I personally believe that it is the Judaizers who were in the church prior to they being exposed by the destruction of the temple. Paul understood that the temple was the Body of Christ, and while he was writing to the Thessalonian church he would warn that the man of sin (Romans 5:12-19 says the man of sin is Adam, and Jesus pointed out that the son of perdition is Judas John 17:12) would be within the Body of Christ. This spirit would be antichrist 1 John 2:18 (not just opposing but being the substitute).
Paul also mentions a falling away first, which its beginnings is spoken of 2 Timothy 1:15 when the apostle tells the young evangelist that all they (ministers) had turned their backs on Paul. Paul also points out in 2 Timothy 4:10 all those who left him, mentioning that Demas left because he loved that present age, which would refer to law keeping. One thing that has to be kept in mind, is that Paul gives the time indicator as being an apostasy which would indicate that the end was near, that would not be an apostasy 2,000 years in the future, because it had to happen while the church was still pristine, new born, and not 2,000 years after 2600 different denominations cropped up? It also couldn't refer to an apostasy of Israelism, because that was already deep in trouble by the time Jesus got on the scene. Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Hellenists, and Zealots. Paul is warning a fledgling church of a time indicator that was clearly going to happen in their time (hence the warning) and the apostasy which they would have to deal with.
The hellenized Judean Christians were the ones who primarily went to Asia Minor, since Israelism was unknown to the Roman empire (due to it being a religion primarily to Judeans and just a few Romans who lived among them) the religion would now go throughout the known world as Christianity. The Judaizers took advantage of the lack of understanding that these new Roman converts had, and taught things they ought not Titus 1:11, 1Timothy 6:5, 2Timothy 3:6, Philippians 1:15, and were super apostles of 2 Corinthians 11:4, they were bringing in heresy and destroying the church. But at the days of God's vengeance Luke 21:22 all things written would be completed, this would be the proper time that he would be exposed. In Romans 1:18 states that the wrath of God would come against those who suppress the truth by their wickedness. This was what the Judaizers were doing during the time of Paul, and when Jesus' words concerning the temple were vindicated the Judaizers were exposed. At the days of vengeance Luke 21:22 the Lord would expose the Judaizers with the breath of His mouth, and the brightness of His presence, showing that Jesus was right and that the Judaizers had not a love for the truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:10 shows that the man is now the "they" who left in 1 John 2:19, and were finally exposed because they had not a love for the truth unto salvation.
I was told that it was a man in some distant future who would sit in a rebuilt temple in Israel, and that those who were destroyed were those who left Apostolic Pentecost. But while the preacher preached, and teacher told, while studying the verses it was saying that the time indicator first and foremost was an apostasy, this apostasy had to happen prior to whoever it was would sit wherever they sat. But I was 2,000 years later in a movement which came out of other movements, that came out of yet other movements. Hey, the Great Schism in Eastern Orthodoxy was in 1054 A.D.?!? Martin Luther nailing paper work to a Roman church door in 1517? Azusa street was supposed to be Pentecost coming back in 1906? Hey, whatever anyone may think of what I posted of who is the who sitting in the temple of God, you still have to deal with Paul specifically pointing to an apostasy which would indicate everything coming together. Not apostasies, but an apostasy, and it wasn't Trinitarianism which would get formulated way after a multitude of other apostasies.
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
nope. and im not going to debate something I have spent the last 20years ignoring. hahaha...
I am decidedly undecided on eschatology.
What I do know is if you look at the Islamic eschatology in terms of the geopolitical reality in the ME right now, it will drive toward total war.
They will be in our streets blowing things up. They will kill each other until someone wins. They will provoke until the west aligns and joins the battle or submits.
if the futurists are right, then this is going to get nasty.
if the Preterists are right then this is going to get nasty.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preterism
snippets
Historically, preterists and non-preterists have generally agreed that the the Jesuit Luis de Alcasar (1554–1613) wrote the first systematic preterist exposition of prophecy - Vestigatio arcani sensus in Apocalypsi (published in 1614) - during the Counter-Reformation...
Due to resistance by Protestant Historicists, the preterist view was slow to gain acceptance outside the Roman Catholic Church.[14][page needed] Among Protestants it was first accepted by Hugo Grotius,[15][16] a Dutch Protestant eager to establish common ground between Protestants and the Roman Catholic Church...
The first full preterist exposition was finally written in 1730 by the Protestant and Arian, Frenchman Firmin Abauzit (‘Essai sur l'Apocalypse’), who worked in then independent Republic of Geneva as a librarian.[23] This was part of a growing development of more systematic preterist expositions of Revelation.[24] Later, though, it appears that Abauzit recanted this approach after a critical examination by his English translator, Dr. Twells.[25]
The earliest American full preterist work was 'The Second Advent of the Lord Jesus Christ: A Past Event', which was written in 1845 by Robert Townley. Townley later recanted this view.[26]
__________________
If we ever forget that we're One Nation Under God, then we will be a nation gone under - Ronald Reagan
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preterism
snippets
Historically, preterists and non-preterists have generally agreed that the the Jesuit Luis de Alcasar (15541613) wrote the first systematic preterist exposition of prophecy - Vestigatio arcani sensus in Apocalypsi (published in 1614) - during the Counter-Reformation...
Due to resistance by Protestant Historicists, the preterist view was slow to gain acceptance outside the Roman Catholic Church.[14][page needed] Among Protestants it was first accepted by Hugo Grotius,[15][16] a Dutch Protestant eager to establish common ground between Protestants and the Roman Catholic Church...
The first full preterist exposition was finally written in 1730 by the Protestant and Arian, Frenchman Firmin Abauzit (Essai sur l'Apocalypse), who worked in then independent Republic of Geneva as a librarian.[23] This was part of a growing development of more systematic preterist expositions of Revelation.[24] Later, though, it appears that Abauzit recanted this approach after a critical examination by his English translator, Dr. Twells.[25]
The earliest American full preterist work was 'The Second Advent of the Lord Jesus Christ: A Past Event', which was written in 1845 by Robert Townley. Townley later recanted this view.[26]
Jesuits were busy bees. They were also accused of coming up with Dispensationism. Well, if you take this article as Gospel then the Historist view is the way to go.
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
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