Original Sin

[mfblume]

I agree with most you say, Lafon, but to use Hebrews 9 and say flesh must die is to miss the point he made by saying that.

Heb 9:27-28 KJV And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: (28) So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.


Verse 28 is the point. Because we were appointed to die once, Jesus died AS US. So, without having yet died ourselves in the flesh, that death of His counts as ours, or else He did not bear our sins.

Why do we die? Sin. So, Jesus took our sins in His own death, so we can say we already died! If Hebrews 9 is not allowing for us to say we already died, then we were never baptized into His death.

IN short, verse 27 cannot be understood without verse 28.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

God knew man would sin. Yes. But His perfect plan is not being abrogated. Man is being returned to the original position God placed Adam in before the fall. As Lafon said, it was a perfect situation without death, because God said it was VERY GOOD.
You noted that God is not reactionary. You actually contradicted your own hypothesis by saying that, though. You are claiming He would not have created man in the situation on earth that He did if He foreknew man would NOT sin. So He created by His foreknowledge of man's sin, when that cannot be the case.
God made man in the way and situation He did , and did not do so as the result of knowing man would sin. The foreknowledge of man's sin did not take God back, obviously. It did not make Him do things differently if reality was that sin would not occur and He knew it. He just had a means of restoring man perfectly back to the prefall status in which He made man.
If the absence of future sin was the reality, as we know it isn't obviously, God would not have created man in any different situation than He did. That's the only way we can define VERY GOOD and the only way to read the Word and follow God's will without adding to the word with speculation. It's Occam's Razor in full force.
We have to believe that God's situation for Adam was sub-par for us to think we are not being returned to that position. But God said it was very good. Did God resort to PLAN B because PLAN A was not good enough? If man's destiny is different from man's situation in prefall times, then there are TWO PLANS of God which implies failure on His part the first time. Or, the only other conclusion is that God is reactionary which you admit cannot be the case.
With all due respect, brother, you are insisting on your hypothesis for the sake of upholding your belief that man is not intended to live forever on this earth free of death. You should be considering the points Lafon and I pointed out with the thought of why God put man in the situation He did, and what the Word described it as, rather than focusing on retaining your current belief of man's future. Your focus is on your belief instead of the actual Word presented to us. I know you claim you got your belief from the Word, but you are not focusing solely on it in the record of Genesis 1-2 in this instance. You're remaining conscious of your need to not be wrong in your belief of man's destiny.
You still never told us where man will exist physically forever. Why is that?

Why you would attribute that doctrine to me, of flesh living forever in this natural earth,
I don't understand. That is the doctrine YOU espouse: man living forever in a natural earth!

As to where the Church will live forever, I have touched upon that. If you will know where
the WORD was before it was sent to the earth, then you will know where the Church will
abide: in eternity.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Why you would attribute that doctrine to me, of flesh living forever in this natural earth,
I don't understand. That is the doctrine YOU espouse: man living forever in a natural earth!

As to where the Church will live forever, I have touched upon that. If you will know where
the WORD was before it was sent to the earth, then you will know where the Church will
abide: in eternity.

Eternity is not a place, bro.

And I never attributed to you anything about man living forever in the earth. You are not reading what I am writing. Please read it again.

And neither are you answering my questions. If Adam's sin did not count as our sin, making us sinners, then Christ's righteousness is not ours. That is the real issue in this thread.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Eternity is not a place, bro.
And I never attributed to you anything about man living forever in the earth. You are not reading what I am writing. Please read it again.
And neither are you answering my questions. If Adam's sin did not count as our sin, making us sinners, then Christ's righteousness is not ours. That is the real issue in this thread.

Beloved, we do not seem to be speaking the same language. Let me see, there:
TO ME eternity is not a place, neither does it occupy a place in time, because it is
not physical (natural realm) nor is it limited to time. It does have a place in our vocabulary,
therefore we call (?) eternity "it". (I apologize for my limited vocabulary)

I believe scripture teaches that we (the Church) will not be clothed upon with this natural
bodies after the resurrection, but will inherit immortal (not natural) bodies to which Peter
and Paul alluded. Since they did not seem fit to describe those bodies (tabernacles) further,
neither will I.

As to the Church's future abode, it will be wherever the Spirit and the Word abide.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Beloved, we do not seem to be speaking the same language. Let me see, there:
TO ME eternity is not a place, neither does it occupy a place in time, because it is
not physical (natural realm) nor is it limited to time. It does have a place in our vocabulary,
therefore we call (?) eternity "it". (I apologize for my limited vocabulary)

I believe scripture teaches that we (the Church) will not be clothed upon with this natural
bodies after the resurrection, but will inherit immortal (not natural) bodies to which Peter
and Paul alluded. Since they did not seem fit to describe those bodies (tabernacles) further,
neither will I.

As to the Church's future abode, it will be wherever the Spirit and the Word abide.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

(1) God knew man would sin. Yes. But His perfect plan is not being abrogated. Man is being returned to the original position God placed Adam in before the fall. As Lafon said, it was a perfect situation without death, because God said it was VERY GOOD.
You noted that God is not reactionary. You actually contradicted your own hypothesis by saying that, though. You are claiming He would not have created man in the situation on earth that He did if He foreknew man would NOT sin. So He created by His foreknowledge of man's sin, when that cannot be the case.
God made man in the way and situation He did , and did not do so as the result of knowing man would sin. The foreknowledge of man's sin did not take God back, obviously. It did not make Him do things differently if reality was that sin would not occur and He knew it. He just had a means of restoring man perfectly back to the prefall status in which He made man.
If the absence of future sin was the reality, as we know it isn't obviously, God would not have created man in any different situation than He did. That's the only way we can define VERY GOOD and the only way to read the Word and follow God's will without adding to the word with speculation. It's Occam's Razor in full force.
We have to believe that God's situation for Adam was sub-par for us to think we are not being returned to that position. But God said it was very good. Did God resort to PLAN B because PLAN A was not good enough? If man's destiny is different from man's situation in prefall times, then there are TWO PLANS of God which implies failure on His part the first time. Or, the only other conclusion is that God is reactionary which you admit cannot be the case.
With all due respect, brother, you are insisting on your hypothesis for the sake of upholding your belief that man is not intended to live forever on this earth free of death. You should be considering the points Lafon and I pointed out with the thought of why God put man in the situation He did, and what the Word described it as, rather than focusing on retaining your current belief of man's future. Your focus is on your belief instead of the actual Word presented to us. I know you claim you got your belief from the Word, but you are not focusing solely on it in the record of Genesis 1-2 in this instance. You're remaining conscious of your need to not be wrong in your belief of man's destiny.
(2) You still never told us where man will exist physically forever. Why is that?

Let's deal with the issues in bold before going any further, OK? Just bear with me.

(1a) How/why did God KNOW man would sin?
Now, did Adam and Eve sinned "willfully", as some denom's believe; or were they tempted?
If they sinned willfully then I would think they have no place with the Church, hence No
Church; but since there IS a Church, then Adam and Eve could not have sinned
willfully, but were tempted;
(1b Now, if they (Adam and Eve) were tempted, it is because there was one who tempted.
So Lucifer was in the garden, either shielding himself behind the serpent or he was the
very serpent, itself. In other words, iniquity was present in the garden. Now if iniquity was
in the garden, then it stands to reason that Lucifer (Satan) had already been cast out of from
God's presence (God is eternal). So now the question is: was man created AFTER iniquity
was found in Lucifer, or before? I believe that the witness is after.

(2) Man WILL NOT exist physically after the heavens (as we know them) are dissolved.
Man was created by God's Word and has God's indwelling Spirit. Therefore there is only
one place that man will abide: in God!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Beloved, we do not seem to be speaking the same language.

I think your missing my actual questions.

Let me see, there:
TO ME eternity is not a place, neither does it occupy a place in time, because it is
not physical (natural realm) nor is it limited to time. It does have a place in our vocabulary,
therefore we call (?) eternity "it". (I apologize for my limited vocabulary)

I believe scripture teaches that we (the Church) will not be clothed upon with this natural
bodies after the resurrection, but will inherit immortal (not natural) bodies to which Peter
and Paul alluded. Since they did not seem fit to describe those bodies (tabernacles) further,
neither will I.

As to the Church's future abode, it will be wherever the Spirit and the Word abide.

The bodies will be spiritual and quite physical, though. Physical bodies are made for physical abodes. It's rather simple. Back where Adam fell from. Back to where things were before sin came.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Let's deal with the issues in bold before going any further, OK? Just bear with me.

(1a) How/why did God KNOW man would sin?
Now, did Adam and Eve sinned "willfully", as some denom's believe; or were they tempted?
If they sinned willfully then I would think they have no place with the Church, hence No
Church; but since there IS a Church, then Adam and Eve could not have sinned
willfully, but were tempted;
(1b Now, if they (Adam and Eve) were tempted, it is because there was one who tempted.
So Lucifer was in the garden, either shielding himself behind the serpent or he was the
very serpent, itself. In other words, iniquity was present in the garden. Now if iniquity was
in the garden, then it stands to reason that Lucifer (Satan) had already been cast out of from
God's presence (God is eternal). So now the question is: was man created AFTER iniquity
was found in Lucifer, or before? I believe that the witness is after.

(2) Man WILL NOT exist physically after the heavens (as we know them) are dissolved.
Man was created by God's Word and has God's indwelling Spirit. Therefore there is only
one place that man will abide: in God!

Great points. I will get to them later tonight. Busy day!

[Lafon]

This is directed exclusively to thephynxman .... do NOT respond within the next hour, for if you do then I will know that you have acted in haste and haven't actually taken the time to read, study, and scripturally ascertain the veracity of what I am about to tender for your consideration.

Originally Posted by thephnxman

(1a) How/why did God KNOW man would sin?
Now, did Adam and Eve sinned "willfully", as some denom's believe; or were they tempted?
If they sinned willfully then I would think they have no place with the Church, hence No
Church; but since there IS a Church, then Adam and Eve could not have sinned
willfully, but were tempted;

This makes about as much sense, to me at least, and perhaps lots of others who would never take the time to tell you, as the manner in which a 3 year old child might endeavor to tender an explanation of the principles of aerodynamics! I am not trying to bellittle you, but simply being candid, and hopefully, in the process, make you aware of some things which will serve to correct some apparent faults in your expressed beliefs about some important matters.

God gave Adam and Eve a CHOICE .... refrain from eating the fruit from the "tree of the knowledge of good and evil" and live FOREVER in the PERFECT bodies He had prepared for them, OR CHOOSE, of their own free-will, to eat that forbidden fruit, and in so doing, receive the promised curse of the death of their earthly tabernacle. It really is just as simple as that!

Were they "tempted" to disobey God's commandment by eating that forbidden fruit? Absolutely! But .... it was NOT the "temptation" which brought the curse of death! It was their WILLFUL CHOICE to succumb to that "temptation"!

You seem to be placing the cause for the curse of death upon the "tempting," instead of where it rightly belongs, that is, their "willful choice"! Just as you and I, as well as every saint daily encounters "temptations" to sin, and we either choose of our own free-will to submit or refrain, such was the situation that confronted Adam and Eve. They CHOSE to sin instead of refraining! And it was their CHOICE which brought about the curse of death!

(1b Now, if they (Adam and Eve) were tempted, it is because there was one who tempted.
So Lucifer was in the garden, either shielding himself behind the serpent or he was the
very serpent, itself. In other words, iniquity was present in the garden. Now if iniquity was
in the garden, then it stands to reason that Lucifer (Satan) had already been cast out of from
God's presence (God is eternal). So now the question is: was man created AFTER iniquity
was found in Lucifer, or before? I believe that the witness is after.

Without citing lots of scriptural passages to authenticate the claim, but any Bible Scholar would readily agree that God's creation of the angelic host of heaven preceded His creation of mankind. So this indisputable fact has no relevance to the topic of discussion, however, because you have elected to do so, allow me to respond to your erroneous claim that "Lucifer (Satan) had already been cast out of from God's presence (God is eternal)."

It should be without disputation whatsoever that Lucifer's fall came about prior to God's creation of mankind. Indeed, the language of the Scriptures is silent regarding the length of time that elapsed between God's creation of the angelic host, Lucifer's fall, and His subsequent creation of mankind. It could have been millenniums for that matter. It is not necessary that we know this, but what is important is your claim (which is false, BTW), which asserts that Satan was cast out from God's presence PRIOR to God's creation of mankind.

What is the scriptural basis for such a claim? Is it because you have misunderstood the words of Christ Jesus, who said, when responding to the remarks of the seventy disciples that returned to Him after performing many miracles by the power He invested in His name and gave them the authority to use in casting out "devils" and to heal all manner of sicknesses and diseases, to wit, "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven" (Luke 10:18)? If so, you could not be more wrong!

Whenever our Lord made that statement concerning Satan's casting down to the earth from heaven, that was the Spirit speaking, and NOT the "man" we know as Christ Jesus! And .... as we know, the words of Romans 4:17 plainly advises that God, being eternal and therefore NOT limited by the restraints of time, "calleth those things which be not as though they were." Such was our Lord's words written in Luke 10:18 .... the Spirit, speaking by the mouth of the Son (i.e., His own fleshly body), was disclosing an event which would occur at an unspecified moment in the future. He was NOT relating information regarding an historical event, that is, something which had already transpired!

Further scriptural evidence which supports this can be found in the words of Revelation 12:7-9, which describes a "war" that is destined to take place in the not too distant future in heaven. Please take note of what happens to the "dragon" (i.e., Satan) and his band of demonic angels as a result of this rebellious assault on the throne of God: "And the dragon was CAST OUT, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: HE WAS CAST OUT INTO THE EARTH, AND HIS ANGELS WERE CAST OUT WITH HIM."

Please note also that we're advised in the words of Revelation 12:10 that PRIOR to his being cast down to the earth as a result of this rebellion against God, Satan had been busy doing this: "for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." Later, in verse #12, we find this warning being given to the inhabitants of the earth when that moment arrives in the future following Satan's casting down to the earth: "Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! Fot the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

This prophesied "woe" (that is, unparalleled misery) that is to befall the inhabitants of the earth, beginning at that moment when Satan and his wicked band is cast down to the earth, is what our Lord called the "great tribulation," to wit, "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be" (Matthew 24:21).

By these scriptural proofs it should be readily recognized, and must be acknowledged, that even as I sit here composing these very words, Satan continues to exercise freedom of movement throughout God's creation, whether it be heaven or the earth. God has contended with the rebellious, deceitful demeanor of Satan and his wicked band since the moment of their willful, self-destructive insurrection for one purpose. It is clearly expressed within the following words found recorded in II Peter 3:9, to wit, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is LONGSUFFERING to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."

Can you grasp what is being expressed within the context of these words? It is because of God's unfathomable, deep, and incomprehensible LOVE for mankind, whom He had not yet created when Lucifer and about one third of the angelic host chose, of their own free-will, to rebel against His sovereign authority, which restrained Him from immediately casting them all into the eternally burning flames of hell's fire, and has allowed him and his evil band to continue in their efforts to persuade mankind to join with them in rebellion against God.

Oh, what patience God has shown by contending with Satan's daily appearance before His throne to "accuse" His chosen people of every conceivable wrongful act, whether they be real or not. However, as the words of Revelation 12 that I've noted clearly indicate, God has precribed a limitation upon His patience, for it is destined to end whenever that moment arrives that Satan and his wicked angels are cast down to the earth. From that moment their movement will be restricted exclusively to the earth!

(2) Man WILL NOT exist physically after the heavens (as we know them) are dissolved.
Man was created by God's Word and has God's indwelling Spirit. Therefore there is only
one place that man will abide: in God!

Again, you're taking scripturally defined things regarding the ultimate destiny of mankind, and so distorting, and thereby falsifying them, so as to render them of absolutely no value whatsoever! Within these statements of personal opinion, you've expressed three things that are utterly wrong. Allow me to explain why I construe them as such ...

First, you state that "Man WILL NOT exist physically after the heavens (as we know them) are dissolved." You tender NO scriptural passages in support of your claim, apparently expecting the reader to accept your words as if they are inerrant and infallible, but which, in reality, contain about as much value as a whisper uttered during a violent tornado. If mankind is not to continue existence following the dissolution of the heavens, then why would the Spirit inspire Paul to write so extensively about the manner in which the "natural" bodies of the saints are to be "changed" into a body consisting of "heavenly" susbstance, such as that body our Lord attained through His death, burial, and resurrection (see I Corinthians 15)?

What about the resurrected bodies of the wicked? Are they to simply fade away into nothing when God dissolves the heavens and the earth? You see, your "theory" contains far too many "holes" which the writings of the Scriptures do NOT allow. It MUST be unmistakably inferred in the words of Revelation 20:15 that ALL of the wicked shall be cast (bodily) into the lake of fire, therefore proving that even the wicked will continue their existence in a "physical" bodies, although they will be cast into the lake of fire, never to be consumed. Did not our Lord so much as express this when He informed His disciples, saying, "But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, Fear him" (Luke 12:5).

Therefore, your statement which asserts that "man WILL NOT exist physically after the heavens (as we know them) are dissolved," is not only nonsensical and false, but it stands in stark contrast to the sound principles of the sacred Writ! It is clear from the scriptural record that when God created man, He intended that he would continue his physical existence forever, and that when Adam's willful rebellious act brought the curse of death to man's substantive body, God effectuated the plan of redemption which He had previously devised whereby man could be reconciled to Him. Such reconciliation is only possible when sinful man takes heed to and obeys His commandments which prescribe the manner by which it is possible (see Acts 2:38).

To be continued .....

[Lafon]

Secondly, your assertion that "Man was created by God's Word and has God's indwelling Spirit" is also erroneous, therefore misleading, especially so to "they that are unlearned and unstable," not being as knowledgeable as they ought to be about the Spirit's indwelling of human flesh. I think it important to always bear at the fore of our minds, that the things we publicly express, whether it be written or oral, are not only seen and heard by fellow saints, but visitors to this forum who know little or nothing about the truth.

And, as our Lord has warned, "That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned" (Matthew 12:36-37). I'm confident that you, like myself, desire to be justified by the things which we publicly express as truth, therefore we MUST exercise extreme caution to insure that we publish ONLY that which is true!

Are you yet ignorant of the scripturally stated fact that NO human being (excepting our Lord, of course) ever possessed the Spirit as an "indwelling" Entity in their mortal bodies until AFTER the Lord Jesus Christ was Himself glorified?

This indisputable fact is clearly shown in the words of John 7:37-39 ... "In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, 'If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.' (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: FOR THE HOLY GHOST WAS NOT YET GIVEN; because that Jesus was not yet glorified."

Unless one is willing to be so brazen as to insinuate that John the apostle, the writer of the gospel account which bears his name, has lied, then we MUST conclude that NO man was indwelt with the Spirit prior to that moment, when approximately ten days following the bodily ascension of the Lord Jesus Christ to His throne located in the invisible heavens, the Spirit was given tp about 120 disciples in an upper room in the city of Jerusalem (see Acts 2:1-4).

No one, and I do mean NO ONE, prior to this event, had been indwelt with the Spirit. But wait! That's not all there is to be said about the matter, as you'll discover in my next statements.

Lastly, your statement which asserts, "Therefore there is only one place that man will abide: in God," also stands in conflict with the inspired words penned by Paul the apostle, and found recorded in I Corinthians 15:24-28, most notably that small phrase which ended his description of the ending of the matter, that is, "that God may be all in all." Please note that Paul was NOT stating that after all has been said and done, and eternity shall be the fate of all of the righteous souls of men, that we are to be "in God," as you state, rather quite the opposite. Paul explicitly states that God (who is Spirit - John 4:24) will be "in" His saints, just as He was, and is, in the heavenly body of Christ Jesus!

This is why John the apostle was inspired to write and advise the saints, saying, "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM; for we shall see him as he is" (I John 3:2). God has affirmed John's proclamation by stating through the interpretation of a significant "message in tongues" received during a worship service at a renown UPCI assembly, "You will be Mine and I will be yours, and we will have the glory AND SHARE IT TOGETHER."

It is my sincere and prayerful hope that you will give due consideration to the scriptural worthiness of the things I've expended of my time and effort to compose and post here. May you be blessed in your continued effort to seek after the "righteousness" of God!