born of water

[obriencp]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

So you believe in "deathbed confessions" for salvation?
Do you believe a person can deny or reject the gospel all their lives, and repent at the
last minute and be saved? Or that a person can believe in false
doctrines until their deathbed, make a "confession of faith", and enter
into the kingdom of God?
Is that not another gospel?

While not a fan of deathbed confessions, i'm reminded of this parable:

Matthew 20:1-16

Similar to the full-day workers in this parable, those that live for Jesus for many years can't be bitter towards those who "lived it up" like the prodigal son. If we begrudge those brothers that come late to the party, it makes me wonder why we were living/working for Him... was it out of a self-righteous spirit or to earn a spot in heaven? I don't know if God accepts deathbed confessions, but i'm not going to get bent out of shape over it.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by obriencp

While not a fan of deathbed confessions, i'm reminded of this parable:
Matthew 20:1-16
Similar to the full-day workers in this parable, those that live for Jesus for many years can't be bitter towards those who "lived it up" like the prodigal son. If we begrudge those brothers that come late to the party, it makes me wonder why we were living/working for Him... was it out of a self-righteous spirit or to earn a spot in heaven? I don't know if God accepts deathbed confessions, but i'm not going to get bent out of shape over it.

That parable speaks of men who went looking to work and found no one who would hire them. All those men
went looking to work, and all the men were hired: some early in the day, some later, and some much later, etc.
There are men who have worked in the Lord's vineyards for many years; others, have only just began their labor.
Nevertheless, each will get their rewards: whatever is right in the eyes of the Lord. And we must keep in mind that that
parable does not speak of men who did not risk their all for the kingdom of God, and only sought the kingdom as a last act.

[Truthseeker]

Sean posted about water baptism takes away the sin nature. I am lost on how water can deal with an internal issue.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Since you know that I do feel that baptism is a step towards the new birth, the final line in your post of above can only be self deception on your part.

Your error IMO is that you take "being buried" in a literal sense. You see baptism as producing a literal cleansing of the heart and changing of our nature which these passages do not teach.

When I was baptized on Oct. 7, 1979, I immediately was delivered SUPERNATURALLY from sin. I had not yet received the Holy Ghost, but had power to stop sinning. I could then, for the first time in my life, say no to sin. I was declared dead to sin.
Didnt' that happen to you?



Paul makes many figurative references to "dying daily" and "reckoning ourselves dead to sin", etc. our "reckoning ourselves dead to sin" starts in the waters of baptism. But obviously we don't really die.

Our OLD MAN(old nature) most certainly does. He is either ALIVE or DEAD. When he resurrects and is allowed off of the cross, we are sinners!


Paul makes it clear that we are "buried" with him in baptism "in order that".... we too may live a new life just as Jesus was raised by the GLORY of the Father.

Our New Life needs no great explanation. It is concluded in this verse....Rom 7:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Water baptism, not only remits sins, but FREE's us from sin!
We leave a PRISON called sin!!!


The phrase "in order that" is key to understanding this verse.

I can say "come to my house ye that are hungry in order that your bellies might be filled" So does that mean the moment they cross the threshold of my home that their bellies will be automatically filled? No. They can only be filled by sitting at the table and eating the food I've prepared for them.
You MUST interpret Romans 6:4 the same way. It says we are baptized (symbolically buried, dying to self, relinquishing control, etc) in order that we might live a new life, NOT to give us new life , as you insist. And what gives us the new life according to Romans 6:4? The same thing that raised Jesus from the dead, the GLORY of the Father. And what is the GLORY of the Father that raised Christ from the dead and also raises us to a new life? The answer is found in Romans 8:11....


THERE is that GLORY that raised Christ from the dead and raises us to walk in newness of life, the Holy Spirit of God!! We are baptized in order that we might receive the Spirit which gives us life.

My reaction to your previous comments were because you are embracing a teaching that belittles Holy Ghost baptism and makes one who the Spirit has "freed from the Law of sin and death" to be a "sinner with the Holy Ghost". You completely ignore the context of Paul's writings in Romans 8 concerning those who are "in the Spirit". I know you were referencing those who had received the Spirit but who had not been baptized. But I must assume you consider people who have the Spirit but were not baptized with what you and I consider to be the appropriate words spoken over them by the baptizer to have not really been baptized at all in God's eyes and thus still in their sins. That is error.

I don't belittle the Holy Ghost as you imply. I only put it on EQUAL FOOTING as water baptism in the salvation process.

If somebody is baptized, and NEVER receives the Spirit, their salvation is incomplete....

If somebody receives the Spirit, and NEVER gets baptized, their salvation is incomplete.

The Apostles insisted on baptism, whether or not folks received the Spirit. It is the part that man was required to do, regarding the salvation process. The Lord takes care of the Spirit birth part.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Sean posted about water baptism takes away the sin nature. I am lost on how water can deal with an internal issue.

Not the water alone, my friend, but the NAME spoken over the candidate being baptized in the water is a SUPERNATURAL event.

It(water and the name, Jesus) works on our sin nature, just like using oil in the book of James is needed(and the prayer of faith) in the healing process.

Both of these events invite the miracle of God, because of our obedience to using water or oil in the process.

[obriencp]

so unless someone has oil, the laying on of hands is wasted time... lol. Sean, I applaud your zeal, but everything to you is so rigid you limit what God can do. How many people were healed in the new testament without oil being put on their head?

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

I have been alongside of more that one "deathbed" incident. I have witnessed what the Lord can do.
A man shot five times, in a coma for seven months; and the Lord raised him up (I only saw him in the coma
for the last month); a man with advanced multiple sclerosis, unable to see and barely hear: he is completely
whole; and more. A four-years old child in an automobile accident, bleeding from her nose and ears, and not
breathing: is now a 32-years-old woman working for the State of Arizona.

"...larger that your religion"? What religion do you think is that? I stated that I believe in a God that performs miracles: that He can save people from certain death so that they may attain life. What is wrong with a God like that...or a gospel like that?

those are all great! But i mean to say that God transcends religion, of which our notions of baptism are a part.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by shazeep

those are all great! But i mean to say that God transcends religion, of which our notions of baptism are a part.

Our notions about baptism??? Baptism isn't a notion we have, but it is commanded by Jesus and His apostles. If God has something unwritten that will otherwise determine people's salvation then He is God, but I doubt it.

De. 30:11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off. 12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it? 13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it? 14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

Paul again quotes from this in Romans 10. I don't think that God would put commandments in scripture and make them optional. God is very clear and we should obey. My Grandmother felt led to be re-baptized the night she first got the Holy Ghost. She didn't at that time understand Jesus name baptism, and had been baptized in the titles. She was led to be baptized in Jesus name and didn't even have the scriptural knowledge to validate it.

[shazeep]

well, wadr i wonder if "led" is not the op word there, and this reinforces for me the confusion in our model. I don't mean to say that baptism is not important, but misunderstood. We have new converts--or really prospects, as most have also been confused as to what they are converting to--desiring "re-baptism" i mean please

and you say "unwritten," but it is written, and just unseen. Not connected to baptism (or salvation) because the connection is spiritual. Wadr, i hear satan laughing with delight @ your rebaptisms.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Sean

Not the water alone, my friend, but the NAME spoken over the candidate being baptized in the water is a SUPERNATURAL event.

It(water and the name, Jesus) works on our sin nature, just like using oil in the book of James is needed(and the prayer of faith) in the healing process.

Both of these events invite the miracle of God, because of our obedience to using water or oil in the process.

Wouldn't oil just be used in a representative sense? No healing power in oil.