Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson
Will anyone please attempt to REFUTE the stated facts of this case?
(1) The law (in question) is clear,
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Tell me the law (in question). Because it's not clear.
On one hand, you have constitutional lawyers saying Bundy has a point with his claim that once NV became a state, fed control of the land should have been returned to the state; on the other hand you claim the law is clear.
So please, post the law in question. What law is clear?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson
(2) the cattle was taken legally by court order,
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The court order was for cattle ON the PUBLIC land controlled by the BLM to be rounded up and held. Did that happen? NO! FACT, the feds shut down over 1,200 MILES of land, including roads used by local and state traffic. FACT, BLM used multiple helicopters and hired cowboys, along with its own armed response teams to run down the cattle and harrass protesters. FACT, BLM destroyed two water tanks and shot two prized bulls which were in their stalls and not a danger to anyone. FACT, BLM fenced off a small area and demanded protesters stay inside the fenced in area in order to use their first amendment rights. FACT, there were BLM snipers positioned up on a hill against Bundy family members who were simply trying to film cattle. (read Moapa Valley news excerpt below)
Quote:
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Bundy said that several of his family members had gone out in four different vehicles. They were parked along the north side of the road about 200 yards apart, he said. David Bundy had gotten out of his car to film the cattle grazing on the distant landscape below. Suddenly a large number of BLM vehicles came down and surrounded the area, Ryan Bundy said. “I counted, they had 11 vehicles all with at least two agents in each one, maybe more,” he said. “They also had four snipers on the hill above us all trained on us. We were doing nothing besides filming the area.” None of the occupants in the four family vehicles were carrying any fire arms, Bundy said. Over their vehicle loudspeakers, the BLM officers ordered the family to leave the area, Bundy said. “They said that we had no first amendment rights except for up by the bridge where they had established an area for that,” Bundy said. The BLM has established two fenced areas near the City of Mesquite, that they have designated as free speech areas for members of the public to express their opinions. The family began to pull away from the roadside area in accordance with the order from the BLM officers. But Dave Bundy was out of his car at the time and didn’t immediately return to his vehicle, Ryan Bundy said. “He was filming and talking on the phone, I don’t know to whom,” Ryan Bundy said. “It happened pretty fast. They came down on him hard and had a German Shepherd on him. And then they took him.” Ryan said that his vehicle, which had been stopped several hundred yards behind that of his brother, had by this time approached close to the scene of the arrest. “I stayed and witnessed the whole thing,” he said. “I told them that I was not going to engage them and that I just wanted to take my brother with me. But they were pushing, pushing, pushing! So I did stay there long enough to witness the whole thing, about 10 feet away from me.”
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Several times you've claimed only the protesters had snipers. This is untrue. Prior to April 12th, it was the BLM who used snipers against the Bundy family.
You claim the BLM was just following the court order; however, the facts show they went well over what the court order gave them authority to do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson
(3) bundy supporters came from many states,
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Uhm, okay. And a lot of them were neighboring ranchers in NV. What's your point?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson
(4) many of them armed,
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Great! However, let's make sure you understand that prior to Saturday, April 12th, when Cliven Bundy gave the ultimatum to stand down; prior to that, Bundy required all the protesters keep their firearms packed away. If you look at the videos prior to the April 12th showdown, no one is armed. Now, what would have happened if on April 12th, these protesters showed up without their weapons? The BLM thugs were in riot gear with automatic assault rifles.
You seem to not understand a simple Reagan concept that won the Cold War...the one with the most weapons wins. Do you think the Cold War was won by the US disarming? No, Reagan won the Cold War by making sure the US had more nukes and bombs than the USSR did.
Same rule applies here. You don't go to a showdown unarmed against BLM thugs armed with assault rifles and riot gear. If they had, I would guarantee you the BLM would have shot tear gas and beat them bloody....which you would have LOVED to watch, I'm sure.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson
(5) and they were strategizing their use of deadly force against legitimate law enforcement officers.
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I disagree with the word "legitimate." Again, refer back to the court order that only gave the BLM permission to hold the cattle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson
(6) Part of their strategizing included the use of snipers and the placement of women in what they thought would be the primary line of fire.
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Use of snipers is a great strategy. PO already showed that this alleged strategy of putting women on the front lines was done by the women themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson
(7) The bundy supporters purposefully disrupted legitimate law enforcement operations-- these people were the thugs in this case.
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Again, refer to the court order. The BLM overreached. Even the Governor of NV, and other members of Congress said it was a gross overreach by the BLM. They were not conducting "legitimate" operations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson
(8) The Feds backed down, to their credit, to avoid a situation that was clearly headed towards bloody violence.
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The feds backed down after two things happened: 1) news broke that Hypocrite Harry Reid was using the BLM as a way to grab Bundy ranch land for his solar plant plans; and 2) hundreds of armed Americans showed up to protest the invasion of state land by the feds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson
(9) Yes, many of the bundy supporters are members of extreme right-winged militia groups.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson
(10) Yes, many of the people who participate in those types of groups are racists.
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I'll group these two together. Anytime you have a gathering of people, whether they be conservative, liberal, anarchists, etc....you will have others who are from fringe/extremist sides.
Let me help you. First, most militia lean right. I doubt there's a single progressive or left-wing state militia around. So you shouldn't be shocked or try to make a point by saying, "oooohhh, they're extreme right-wing." Militia's in general lean right. Who cares.
And of course you throw in the race card...although, as PO pointed out, the protesters were mixed in race and color, so your race card doesn't stick. Also, I've yet to hear you complain about immigrant protesters and the fact that La Raza and other militant immigrant groups are typically behind any pro-amnesty march.
And more of the race card junk. You seem to be fixated on throwing out the race card lately. Several posts on more than this thread show you accusing anyone and everyone of being racist. I'm just waiting for your criticism of obama's "recent past" close ties with a real domestic terrorist, Bill Ayers. I would think, since you are against people who are against the government, that it would include someone like Bill Ayers who actually took lives and attacked the government.
Tell me again, JD, how many BLM thugs did Bundy and his supporters injure or kill during the standoff? How many shots did they fire? How many BLM thugs did they attack?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson
(11) Yes, former Sheriff Mack has collaborated with a noted white supremacist in the recent past.
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Who is this "noted white supremacist" with whom Sheriff Mack collaborated? I'm sure you have a name. Please let me know.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson
(12) Yes, Timothy McVeigh had A LOT in common with many of bundy supporters.
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This is offensive. McVeigh was a domestic or homegrown terrorist. He was at war with the government and brutally attacked the government.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson
No one dares to refute the truth.
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Well, I just did.
You should examine the truth.
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